Discussion:
WILL WORK FOR FOOD -- Should a Christian give????
(too old to reply)
Pastor Frank
2003-07-17 17:57:28 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the good word. Perhaps you can answer something I have found
confusing. I have been of the opinion that Christianity believes in a
God
which is an actual entity, though from my chats with Frank I get the
impression that he believes that the Christian god is simply the 'ideals
of
Christianity'. In order to avoid misinterpretation, I have tried to pin
him
down on this, and he has stated 'And no, there is no independent entity
named god'.
Now I am left with the possibilities that either I am misunderstanding
Frank
again, I originally misunderstood the Christian beliefs, or Frank has a
unique take on the Christian beliefs. There is the other possibility,
that
Frank is purposefully trying to muddle the issue with ambiguous and
obscure
definitions, but I hope not.
(BTW, the thread I am taking the quote from is 'Re: Faith and Knowledge,
Rev. 3.0, Pastor Frank, 2003/07/12, 1:57 pm)
I personally think that sometimes Frank says things which are kind of
difficult to understand. I know sometimes I have the same problem, my
thoughts tell me one thing, but when I try to define what I am saying in
words, they really don't equate to what I am thinking... maybe this is the
case here, with Frank. Maybe Frank knows exactly what he means, and is
right
in what he says, but we don't know what he means, so we might presume that
he is wrong in what he says, based on our not understanding the "thought
processes" that go with what he is saying...
There is a simple remedy for that. All you need to do is ask where I got
the idea from. Keep in mind I don't want to say anything in these NGs which
I cannot back up scripturally.
I think our definitions of God are just our own futile attempt at
explaining
something in words which are way above or beyond anything our words can
really convey. We name our ideas and ideologies, trying to express things
which we really don't understand. I do believe, however, that our creator,
"Our Father in heaven" is an "intelligent being", but he is even so much
more then this, being the very source of intelligence and beyond OUR
intelligence... so maybe what Frank is trying to say is that what WE call
"god" is an ideal, because our carnal minds cannot, by their very nature,
really define the true nature of something which is so far above and
beyond
mortal comprehension.
I get the above from 3 sources: 1. Christ's "God is a Spirit" (John
4:24) meaning NOT an object. Same with God is love (1 John 4:8,16) again NOT
an object. Also from: Jesus in John 14:10: ... the Father that dwelleth in
me, he doeth the works.
If you object, please give citations.
And maybe when Pastor Frank says "there is no
independent entity named god", he means that the word "god" or the name
"god" (which isn't really a name, but more of a descriptive quality)
doesn't
really cut it?
Atheists tend to talk our most holy and perfect God to be a "Sky-daddy"
or "sky-pixy" etc. etc. as if the word God was in any way comparable to such
fantasy objects, devoid of any qualities whatever..
Anyway, I don't REALLY know what Frank meant, but I'm sure he doesn't mean
to say that God is ONLY an ideal, and doesn't really exist outside of our
minds or emotions or whatever... at least I really HOPE that's not what he
means.
That is why I always give plenty of Biblical references, and I am ready
to supply more if asked. However I cannot debate people's beliefs sans
scriptural references, relying on logic or my personal perception of the
Holy Spirit alone, nor can I debate anyone who discounts Biblical reference.
--
Pastor Frank

Jesus in John 14:7: If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also:
and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8: Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9: Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast
thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and
how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10: Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the
words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that
dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Contad Diction
2003-07-17 22:18:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pastor Frank
Thanks for the good word. Perhaps you can answer something I have found
confusing. I have been of the opinion that Christianity believes in a
God
which is an actual entity, though from my chats with Frank I get the
impression that he believes that the Christian god is simply the 'ideals
of
Christianity'. In order to avoid misinterpretation, I have tried to pin
him
down on this, and he has stated 'And no, there is no independent
entity named god'.
Now I am left with the possibilities that either I am misunderstanding
Frank
again, I originally misunderstood the Christian beliefs, or Frank has a
unique take on the Christian beliefs. There is the other possibility,
that
Frank is purposefully trying to muddle the issue with ambiguous and
obscure
definitions, but I hope not.
(BTW, the thread I am taking the quote from is 'Re: Faith and
Knowledge, Rev. 3.0, Pastor Frank, 2003/07/12, 1:57 pm)
I personally think that sometimes Frank says things which are kind of
difficult to understand. I know sometimes I have the same problem, my
thoughts tell me one thing, but when I try to define what I am saying in
words, they really don't equate to what I am thinking... maybe this is
the case here, with Frank. Maybe Frank knows exactly what he means, and
is
right
in what he says, but we don't know what he means, so we might presume
that he is wrong in what he says, based on our not understanding the
"thought processes" that go with what he is saying...
There is a simple remedy for that. All you need to do is ask where I got
the idea from. Keep in mind I don't want to say anything in these NGs
which I cannot back up scripturally.
You really need to try harder then Frank, one minor example is all your
supositions and infurances towards peoples character and actions, I doubt
you will have any scriptural backing for them.
Post by Pastor Frank
I think our definitions of God are just our own futile attempt at
explaining
something in words which are way above or beyond anything our words can
really convey. We name our ideas and ideologies, trying to express things
which we really don't understand. I do believe, however, that our
creator, "Our Father in heaven" is an "intelligent being", but he is even
so much more then this, being the very source of intelligence and beyond
OUR intelligence... so maybe what Frank is trying to say is that what WE
call "god" is an ideal, because our carnal minds cannot, by their very
nature, really define the true nature of something which is so far above
and
beyond
mortal comprehension.
I get the above from 3 sources: 1. Christ's "God is a Spirit" (John
4:24) meaning NOT an object. Same with God is love (1 John 4:8,16) again
NOT an object. Also from: Jesus in John 14:10: ... the Father that
dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
But the word used was not object, it was 'entity'. Was this an error on your
part, did you mean 'there is no independant object named god'?
Post by Pastor Frank
If you object, please give citations.
And maybe when Pastor Frank says "there is no
independent entity named god", he means that the word "god" or the name
"god" (which isn't really a name, but more of a descriptive quality)
doesn't
really cut it?
Atheists tend to talk our most holy and perfect God to be a "Sky-daddy"
or "sky-pixy" etc. etc. as if the word God was in any way comparable to
such fantasy objects, devoid of any qualities whatever..
I many times refer to peoples god as money, or logic etc. Was thi9s
incorrect also?
Post by Pastor Frank
Anyway, I don't REALLY know what Frank meant, but I'm sure he doesn't
mean to say that God is ONLY an ideal, and doesn't really exist outside
of our minds or emotions or whatever... at least I really HOPE that's not
what he means.
That is why I always give plenty of Biblical references, and I am ready
to supply more if asked. However I cannot debate people's beliefs sans
scriptural references, relying on logic or my personal perception of the
Holy Spirit alone, nor can I debate anyone who discounts Biblical reference.
It is quite obvious that you can't, but at least you try.

Regards

--
Oscar Levant
2003-07-18 06:32:29 UTC
Permalink
....nor can I debate anyone who discounts Biblical reference.
--
Pastor Frank
One must have an open mind to reach eternity. That isn't science, just an
article of faith; my own.

I believe that a wise man takes stock of his beliefs, and often.


Oscar Levant
Contad Diction
2003-07-18 09:03:16 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the good word. Perhaps you can answer something I have found
confusing. I have been of the opinion that Christianity believes in a God
which is an actual entity, though from my chats with Frank I get the
impression that he believes that the Christian god is simply the 'ideals
of
Christianity'. In order to avoid misinterpretation, I have tried to pin
him
down on this, and he has stated 'And no, there is no independent entity
named god'.
Jesus Christ is our God incarnate, "a physical entity" who represents
the essence of God, which are "the ideals of Christianity" perfectly. Do
you have any doubts about that?
I thought that was obvious.
There is no logical reason to misunderstand the words the NT whiich I
quote. I do not quote myself, nor invent quotations.
Back to logic again. You enjoy your see-saw, don't you? Lets see know, I
could give you a logical argument, then you will tell me 'god is love' and
logic cannot explain love. I'm beginning to think I could write an
automated Pastor Frank responce generator program.

Regards

--
Pastor Frank
2003-07-18 13:58:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Contad Diction
Thanks for the good word. Perhaps you can answer something I have found
confusing. I have been of the opinion that Christianity believes in a God
which is an actual entity, though from my chats with Frank I get the
impression that he believes that the Christian god is simply the 'ideals
of
Christianity'. In order to avoid misinterpretation, I have tried to pin
him
down on this, and he has stated 'And no, there is no independent entity
named god'.
Jesus Christ is our God incarnate, "a physical entity" who represents
the essence of God, which are "the ideals of Christianity" perfectly. Do
you have any doubts about that?
I thought that was obvious.
There is no logical reason to misunderstand the words the NT whiich I
quote. I do not quote myself, nor invent quotations.
Back to logic again. You enjoy your see-saw, don't you? Lets see know, I
could give you a logical argument, then you will tell me 'god is love' and
logic cannot explain love. I'm beginning to think I could write an
automated Pastor Frank responce generator program.
Is that your reason why you cannot understand the words and concepts in
the NT? Or is your answer non-sequitur?
--
Pastor Frank

2Cor:3:6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of
the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth
life.
Contad Diction
2003-07-18 15:00:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Contad Diction
Thanks for the good word. Perhaps you can answer something I have
found confusing. I have been of the opinion that Christianity believes
in a
God
Post by Contad Diction
which is an actual entity, though from my chats with Frank I get the
impression that he believes that the Christian god is simply the
'ideals
Post by Contad Diction
of
Christianity'. In order to avoid misinterpretation, I have tried to pin
him
down on this, and he has stated 'And no, there is no independent
entity
Post by Contad Diction
named god'.
Jesus Christ is our God incarnate, "a physical entity" who
represents
Post by Contad Diction
the essence of God, which are "the ideals of Christianity" perfectly.
Do
Post by Contad Diction
you have any doubts about that?
I thought that was obvious.
There is no logical reason to misunderstand the words the NT whiich
I
Post by Contad Diction
quote. I do not quote myself, nor invent quotations.
Back to logic again. You enjoy your see-saw, don't you? Lets see know, I
could give you a logical argument, then you will tell me 'god is love'
and logic cannot explain love. I'm beginning to think I could write an
automated Pastor Frank responce generator program.
Is that your reason why you cannot understand the words and concepts in
the NT? Or is your answer non-sequitur?
Non Sequitur? Frank, you have a degree in it. Reread the previous posts, and
tell me where you gathered 'cannot understand the words and concepts in the
NT' from.

Regards

--
Caiaphas
2003-07-19 11:32:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pastor Frank
2Cor:3:6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of
the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth
life.
Pastor Frank, the above passage you posted has great meaning. I looked up the
meaning in the Barnes and Wesley commentaries and I interprete it to mean that
we true Christians should live the teachings of the New Testament and hold them
superior to the Old Testament. The meaning of 'letter' refers to law - Mosaic
Law and I read also Gods Law (Ten Commandments). But, Jesus endorced and
clarified the meaning of the Gods Law which would support that Christ came to
fulfill the law by giving it its true meaning.

I think many Judeo-Christian, not true Christians, lean on the Old Testament to
justify something that they seek for their own earthly ambitions rather than the
spiritural or Gods Will.

Thanks for the Scripture -- the Bible is amazing in what new ideas can come with
different perspectives.
Pastor Frank
2003-07-20 23:15:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Pastor Frank
2Cor:3:6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of
the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth
life.
Pastor Frank, the above passage you posted has great meaning. I looked up the
meaning in the Barnes and Wesley commentaries and I interprete it to mean that
we true Christians should live the teachings of the New Testament and hold them
superior to the Old Testament. The meaning of 'letter' refers to law - Mosaic
Law and I read also Gods Law (Ten Commandments). But, Jesus endorced and
clarified the meaning of the Gods Law which would support that Christ came to
fulfill the law by giving it its true meaning.
I think many Judeo-Christian, not true Christians, lean on the Old Testament to
justify something that they seek for their own earthly ambitions rather than the
spiritural or Gods Will.
Thanks for the Scripture -- the Bible is amazing in what new ideas can come with
different perspectives.
You represent a Christian viewpoint, not at all that of Caiaphas, the
High Priest. Why then are you calling yourself Caiaphas? From that name, I
would rather assume, you identify with those who use scripture to advance
their own worldly ambitions.
--
Pastor Frank

2Tm:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable
for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Caiaphas
2003-07-21 11:29:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Pastor Frank
2Cor:3:6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not
of
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Pastor Frank
the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit
giveth
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Pastor Frank
life.
Pastor Frank, the above passage you posted has great meaning. I looked up
the
Post by Caiaphas
meaning in the Barnes and Wesley commentaries and I interprete it to mean
that
Post by Caiaphas
we true Christians should live the teachings of the New Testament and hold
them
Post by Caiaphas
superior to the Old Testament. The meaning of 'letter' refers to law -
Mosaic
Post by Caiaphas
Law and I read also Gods Law (Ten Commandments). But, Jesus endorced and
clarified the meaning of the Gods Law which would support that Christ came
to
Post by Caiaphas
fulfill the law by giving it its true meaning.
I think many Judeo-Christian, not true Christians, lean on the Old
Testament to
Post by Caiaphas
justify something that they seek for their own earthly ambitions rather
than the
Post by Caiaphas
spiritural or Gods Will.
Thanks for the Scripture -- the Bible is amazing in what new ideas can
come with
Post by Caiaphas
different perspectives.
You represent a Christian viewpoint, not at all that of Caiaphas, the
High Priest. Why then are you calling yourself Caiaphas? From that name, I
would rather assume, you identify with those who use scripture to advance
their own worldly ambitions.
--
No, just a Jewish name I selected when I started posting and looking to learn
about beliefs of Jews some time ago when I was posting questions in Jewish
newsgroups. I am not Jewish nor do I believe in Judaism. I am not anti-Semitic
nor do I hate any other peoples. I am Methodist - a New Covenant Christian. I
do not honor the 'Caiaphas' of Christs time.
Pastor Frank
2003-07-21 19:23:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Pastor Frank
2Cor:3:6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not
of
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Pastor Frank
the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit
giveth
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Pastor Frank
life.
Pastor Frank, the above passage you posted has great meaning. I looked up
the
Post by Caiaphas
meaning in the Barnes and Wesley commentaries and I interprete it to mean
that
Post by Caiaphas
we true Christians should live the teachings of the New Testament and hold
them
Post by Caiaphas
superior to the Old Testament. The meaning of 'letter' refers to law -
Mosaic
Post by Caiaphas
Law and I read also Gods Law (Ten Commandments). But, Jesus endorced and
clarified the meaning of the Gods Law which would support that Christ came
to
Post by Caiaphas
fulfill the law by giving it its true meaning.
I think many Judeo-Christian, not true Christians, lean on the Old
Testament to
Post by Caiaphas
justify something that they seek for their own earthly ambitions rather
than the
Post by Caiaphas
spiritural or Gods Will.
Thanks for the Scripture -- the Bible is amazing in what new ideas can
come with
Post by Caiaphas
different perspectives.
You represent a Christian viewpoint, not at all that of Caiaphas, the
High Priest. Why then are you calling yourself Caiaphas? From that name, I
would rather assume, you identify with those who use scripture to advance
their own worldly ambitions.
No, just a Jewish name I selected when I started posting and looking to learn
about beliefs of Jews some time ago when I was posting questions in Jewish
newsgroups. I am not Jewish nor do I believe in Judaism. I am not anti-Semitic
nor do I hate any other peoples. I am Methodist - a New Covenant Christian. I
do not honor the 'Caiaphas' of Christs time.
Glad to hear that. Perhaps changing your handle to something reflecting
your beliefs would be in order? What do you think?
--
Pastor Frank

2Cor:12:11: I am become a fool in glorying
Caiaphas
2003-07-22 01:40:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Pastor Frank
2Cor:3:6: Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament;
not
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Pastor Frank
of
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Pastor Frank
the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the
spirit
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Pastor Frank
giveth
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Pastor Frank
life.
Pastor Frank, the above passage you posted has great meaning. I
looked up
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Pastor Frank
the
Post by Caiaphas
meaning in the Barnes and Wesley commentaries and I interprete it to
mean
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Pastor Frank
that
Post by Caiaphas
we true Christians should live the teachings of the New Testament and
hold
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Pastor Frank
them
Post by Caiaphas
superior to the Old Testament. The meaning of 'letter' refers to
law -
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Pastor Frank
Mosaic
Post by Caiaphas
Law and I read also Gods Law (Ten Commandments). But, Jesus endorced
and
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Caiaphas
clarified the meaning of the Gods Law which would support that Christ
came
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Pastor Frank
to
Post by Caiaphas
fulfill the law by giving it its true meaning.
I think many Judeo-Christian, not true Christians, lean on the Old
Testament to
Post by Caiaphas
justify something that they seek for their own earthly ambitions
rather
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Pastor Frank
than the
Post by Caiaphas
spiritural or Gods Will.
Thanks for the Scripture -- the Bible is amazing in what new ideas can
come with
Post by Caiaphas
different perspectives.
You represent a Christian viewpoint, not at all that of Caiaphas,
the
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Pastor Frank
High Priest. Why then are you calling yourself Caiaphas? From that name,
I
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Pastor Frank
would rather assume, you identify with those who use scripture to
advance
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Pastor Frank
their own worldly ambitions.
No, just a Jewish name I selected when I started posting and looking to
learn
Post by Caiaphas
about beliefs of Jews some time ago when I was posting questions in Jewish
newsgroups. I am not Jewish nor do I believe in Judaism. I am not
anti-Semitic
Post by Caiaphas
nor do I hate any other peoples. I am Methodist - a New Covenant
Christian. I
Post by Caiaphas
do not honor the 'Caiaphas' of Christs time.
Glad to hear that. Perhaps changing your handle to something reflecting
your beliefs would be in order? What do you think?
--
Pastor Frank
You have a good point and give good advice. I will consider this and may come
up with a more appropriate handle.
Jessica L. Price
2003-07-23 03:31:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caiaphas
No, just a Jewish name I selected when I started posting and looking to learn
about beliefs of Jews some time ago when I was posting questions in Jewish
newsgroups. I am not Jewish nor do I believe in Judaism. I am not anti-Semitic
nor do I hate any other peoples. I am Methodist - a New Covenant Christian. I
do not honor the 'Caiaphas' of Christs time.
Wait, wait. Let me get this straight. You thought that in order to pass as
a Jew in a contemporary Jewish group, the name Caiaphas would make you fit
right in?

I'm not sure whether to laugh or despair.
Caiaphas
2003-07-23 11:41:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Caiaphas
No, just a Jewish name I selected when I started posting and looking to
learn
Post by Caiaphas
about beliefs of Jews some time ago when I was posting questions in Jewish
newsgroups. I am not Jewish nor do I believe in Judaism. I am not
anti-Semitic
Post by Caiaphas
nor do I hate any other peoples. I am Methodist - a New Covenant
Christian. I
Post by Caiaphas
do not honor the 'Caiaphas' of Christs time.
Wait, wait. Let me get this straight. You thought that in order to pass as
a Jew in a contemporary Jewish group, the name Caiaphas would make you fit
right in?
I'm not sure whether to laugh or despair.
Don't jump to conclusions. I was not masquarading as a Jew. I posted up front
that I was a Christian looking to learn about Judaism. The handle 'Caiaphas' is
just a name. Most Christians don't even know who the famous Caiaphas was - they
don't read the Bible. Feel good that you intelligent to recognize an obscure
characters name.
Ron B.
2003-07-23 12:29:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caiaphas
Don't jump to conclusions. I was not masquarading as a Jew. I posted up front
that I was a Christian looking to learn about Judaism. The handle 'Caiaphas' is
just a name. Most Christians don't even know who the famous Caiaphas was - they
don't read the Bible. Feel good that you intelligent to recognize an
obscure characters name.
I'd hardly call Caiphas an obscure character. He is a central player in the
Synoptic's Passion Narrative. However, why do you say that "Most
Christians don't even know who the famous Caiaphas was"? Has this been
your experience? BTW, if you _were_ Jewish using this handle, it would be
evidence that you were anti-Christian.
Jessica L. Price
2003-07-23 13:25:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron B.
Post by Caiaphas
Don't jump to conclusions. I was not masquarading as a Jew. I posted
up
Post by Ron B.
Post by Caiaphas
front
that I was a Christian looking to learn about Judaism. The handle 'Caiaphas' is
just a name. Most Christians don't even know who the famous Caiaphas
was
Post by Ron B.
Post by Caiaphas
- they
don't read the Bible. Feel good that you intelligent to recognize an
obscure characters name.
I'd hardly call Caiphas an obscure character. He is a central player in the
Synoptic's Passion Narrative. However, why do you say that "Most
Christians don't even know who the famous Caiaphas was"? Has this been
your experience? BTW, if you _were_ Jewish using this handle, it would be
evidence that you were anti-Christian.
And I don't know about Christians, but most Jews I know know very well who
Caiaphas is, and view him as an example of anti-Jewish sentiment in the NT.
Had I been a member of the newsgroup you were visiting, known you were
Christian and had picked that handle to interact with a Jewish newsgroup, it
would have made me a tad nervous about your attitude.

But I'm glad to hear that you don't harbor any such anti-Jewish feelings.
Ron B.
2003-07-23 14:20:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jessica L. Price
Post by Ron B.
Post by Caiaphas
Don't jump to conclusions. I was not masquarading as a Jew. I posted
up
Post by Ron B.
Post by Caiaphas
front
that I was a Christian looking to learn about Judaism. The handle 'Caiaphas' is
just a name. Most Christians don't even know who the famous Caiaphas
was
Post by Ron B.
Post by Caiaphas
- they
don't read the Bible. Feel good that you intelligent to recognize an
obscure characters name.
I'd hardly call Caiphas an obscure character. He is a central player in the
Synoptic's Passion Narrative. However, why do you say that "Most
Christians don't even know who the famous Caiaphas was"? Has this been
your experience? BTW, if you _were_ Jewish using this handle, it would
be evidence that you were anti-Christian.
And I don't know about Christians, but most Jews I know know very well who
Caiaphas is, and view him as an example of anti-Jewish sentiment in the
NT. Had I been a member of the newsgroup you were visiting, known you were
Christian and had picked that handle to interact with a Jewish newsgroup,
it would have made me a tad nervous about your attitude.
But I'm glad to hear that you don't harbor any such anti-Jewish feelings.
Jessica, are you aware that you responded to my post rather than Caiaphas' ?
Jessica L. Price
2003-07-23 14:33:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron B.
Post by Jessica L. Price
And I don't know about Christians, but most Jews I know know very well who
Caiaphas is, and view him as an example of anti-Jewish sentiment in the
NT. Had I been a member of the newsgroup you were visiting, known you were
Christian and had picked that handle to interact with a Jewish newsgroup,
it would have made me a tad nervous about your attitude.
But I'm glad to hear that you don't harbor any such anti-Jewish feelings.
Jessica, are you aware that you responded to my post rather than Caiaphas' ?
Oops. Sorry.
Caiaphas
2003-07-23 18:13:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jessica L. Price
Post by Ron B.
Post by Caiaphas
Don't jump to conclusions. I was not masquarading as a Jew. I posted
up
Post by Ron B.
Post by Caiaphas
front
that I was a Christian looking to learn about Judaism. The handle 'Caiaphas' is
just a name. Most Christians don't even know who the famous Caiaphas
was
Post by Ron B.
Post by Caiaphas
- they
don't read the Bible. Feel good that you intelligent to recognize an
obscure characters name.
I'd hardly call Caiphas an obscure character. He is a central player in
the
Post by Ron B.
Synoptic's Passion Narrative. However, why do you say that "Most
Christians don't even know who the famous Caiaphas was"? Has this been
your experience? BTW, if you _were_ Jewish using this handle, it would be
evidence that you were anti-Christian.
And I don't know about Christians, but most Jews I know know very well who
Caiaphas is, and view him as an example of anti-Jewish sentiment in the NT.
Had I been a member of the newsgroup you were visiting, known you were
Christian and had picked that handle to interact with a Jewish newsgroup, it
would have made me a tad nervous about your attitude.
But I'm glad to hear that you don't harbor any such anti-Jewish feelings.
Not any anti-Jewish feelings at all. I have some Jews in my family. As a
Christian, I am opposed to the religion Judaism as it is opposed to Christ and
Christ opposed Judaism. That is theology. I am opposed to the way modern-day
Israel is treating Arabs and the way it wants to confiscate land -- but that is
because I see nothing Biblical about modern-day Israel and hold Gods principles
of Justice and Fairness higher than considering the Torah as a modern-day land
document.

Those are my beliefs - YMMV.
Pastor Frank
2003-07-23 20:28:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jessica L. Price
Post by Ron B.
I'd hardly call Caiphas an obscure character. He is a central player in
the
Post by Ron B.
Synoptic's Passion Narrative. However, why do you say that "Most
Christians don't even know who the famous Caiaphas was"? Has this been
your experience? BTW, if you _were_ Jewish using this handle, it would be
evidence that you were anti-Christian.
And I don't know about Christians, but most Jews I know know very well who
Caiaphas is, and view him as an example of anti-Jewish sentiment in the NT.
Had I been a member of the newsgroup you were visiting, known you were
Christian and had picked that handle to interact with a Jewish newsgroup, it
would have made me a tad nervous about your attitude.
But I'm glad to hear that you don't harbor any such anti-Jewish feelings.
We are to cultivate "anti-Jewish feelings" as long as Caiaphas is being
justified in Israel, but in answer, the preaching of the Christian gospels
is prohibited.
--
Pastor Frank

Jesus in Lk:4:18: The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath
anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the
broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of
sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised
Jessica L. Price
2003-07-23 20:50:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pastor Frank
We are to cultivate "anti-Jewish feelings" as long as Caiaphas is being
justified in Israel, but in answer, the preaching of the Christian gospels
is prohibited.
I'm not precisely sure what you mean by that. But I am referring to Jews as
a people or culture, not as a religion, so I certainly hope that you
wouldn't cultivate anti-Jewish feelings toward Jews on the basis of descent
or culture. I hope we can all agree that that would be wrong. One can be
*anti-Judaism* -- i.e. believe that the religion is wrong -- just as one is
anti-every-non-Christian-religion without being antisemitic or
anti-Jewish -- i.e. persecute the people as a *people.* There's a lot more
to being Jewish than religion.

Your comment makes me uncomfortable. Church-sponsored attempts to cultivate
"anti-Jewish feelings" have generally ended in pogroms. Having corresponded
with you briefly before and not found you to be a violent or malicious
person, I sincerely hope that these are not the "anti-Jewish feelings" you
are advocating.

One can believe that a group is mistaken in its religious believes without
perpetuating the idea that they are somehow subhuman or need to be gotten
rid of. Shouldn't the Christian desire to bring everyone to Christ stem
from *love* of other people, even if one does not love their *practices*?
One can, presumably, still hate the sin and love the sinner.

Regards,

Jessica
Caiaphas
2003-07-23 23:31:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jessica L. Price
Post by Pastor Frank
We are to cultivate "anti-Jewish feelings" as long as Caiaphas is
being
Post by Pastor Frank
justified in Israel, but in answer, the preaching of the Christian gospels
is prohibited.
I'm not precisely sure what you mean by that. But I am referring to Jews as
a people or culture, not as a religion, so I certainly hope that you
wouldn't cultivate anti-Jewish feelings toward Jews on the basis of descent
or culture. I hope we can all agree that that would be wrong. One can be
*anti-Judaism* -- i.e. believe that the religion is wrong -- just as one is
anti-every-non-Christian-religion without being antisemitic or
anti-Jewish -- i.e. persecute the people as a *people.* There's a lot more
to being Jewish than religion.
Your comment makes me uncomfortable. Church-sponsored attempts to cultivate
"anti-Jewish feelings" have generally ended in pogroms. Having corresponded
with you briefly before and not found you to be a violent or malicious
person, I sincerely hope that these are not the "anti-Jewish feelings" you
are advocating.
One can believe that a group is mistaken in its religious believes without
perpetuating the idea that they are somehow subhuman or need to be gotten
rid of. Shouldn't the Christian desire to bring everyone to Christ stem
from *love* of other people, even if one does not love their *practices*?
One can, presumably, still hate the sin and love the sinner.
Regards,
Jessica
I would guess Pastor Frank misspoke and intended to mean he, like myself, is
anti-Judaism. A lot of times we use Jew, Jewish, etc. in ways that others could
perceive as anti-Semitic. You mentioned that there are a lot of 'crazies' on
the internet, Pastor Frank is definitely one of them, but there are a lot of
'crazies' supporting the Zionist cause and Jewish Culture. Many of those
'crazies' get kinda crazy when anyone posts negatively or even posts in
opposition to the religion Judaism or disagree with many of the actions of the
modern-day Israeli government. Some of these 'crazies' maintain that you are
anti-Semitic if you are opposed to the way Israel is handling the crisis in the
Middle East.

I am heartened to see that you understand that gentiles can be opposed to the
religion Judaism and not be branded as anti-Semitic.

I agree with Pastor Franks position where he alludes that we prefer that
modern-day Israel be a Christian country instead of a country that promotes a
religion that is opposed to Christ.
Jessica L. Price
2003-07-24 15:36:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caiaphas
I would guess Pastor Frank misspoke and intended to mean he, like myself, is
anti-Judaism. A lot of times we use Jew, Jewish, etc. in ways that others could
perceive as anti-Semitic. You mentioned that there are a lot of 'crazies' on
the internet, Pastor Frank is definitely one of them, but there are a lot of
'crazies' supporting the Zionist cause and Jewish Culture. Many of those
'crazies' get kinda crazy when anyone posts negatively or even posts in
opposition to the religion Judaism or disagree with many of the actions of the
modern-day Israeli government. Some of these 'crazies' maintain that you are
anti-Semitic if you are opposed to the way Israel is handling the crisis in the
Middle East.
Ah yes. I hear you. On the other hand, among some liberal and some
ultra-Orthodox Jews, agreeing with *anything* the Israeli government does is
considered a sign of bad taste. As I have friends with relatives in Israel,
I know that in certain circles one is not considered fully conversant in the
Middle East situation until one can foam at the mouth about the latest
actions of the Israeli government from both a left-wing *and* a right-wing
perspective. On the other hand, Israel is the only Jewish state in the
world, so while many people I know disagree with a lot of the stuff going on
there, most remain committed to the vision of a Jewish state. And at one
time it was a pretty neat place to live, or so I hear, having never lived
there myself.
Post by Caiaphas
I am heartened to see that you understand that gentiles can be opposed to the
religion Judaism and not be branded as anti-Semitic.
Of course I understand that. It's pretty clear that one of the basic tenets
of Christianity is a wholesale rejection of the possible validity of any
other mode of religious thought. That's not antisemitic unless it becomes
directed at the people themselves.

All that makes me nervous is that it's difficult to speak of "Christian
culture" in the way that one speaks of "Jewish culture" as Christianity is
the dominant belief system in so many different cultures. Obviously, there
is no widespread ethnic or national component to Christianity, and
Christians have never been persecuted as a "race." One cannot exactly speak
of "Christian food," Christianity does not have emblematic languages like
Hebrew, Yiddish or Ladino, there is no particular type of music associated
with Christianity like klezmer (obviously, there is Christian sacred music,
but it too is more representative of the country in which it was written --
Bach's and Mozart's masses in Germany, Tallis motets in England, Poulenc
sacred operas in France, Verdi masses in Italy, etc.). Christianity has
not, to the best of my knowledge, been associated with one particular
culture. Well, obviously in its very earliest days, it was associated with
the Judeans, and then with the Romans, but what was "Roman" could still be
easily distinguished from what was "Christian."

In addition, if I may say so without offending, American Christians seem to
compartmentalize their religion a bit more than many Jews do. It is
possible to talk about an observant Christian's lifestyle, possibly even
describe their normal daily schedule without hitting on elements that could
be described as overtly religious, with the exception of church attendence
and saying grace at dinner time. On the other hand, it's impossible to
describe the daily or weekly schedule of an observant Jew without hitting on
a myriad of things that are overtly religious, such as attending minyan,
specific prayers at prescribed parts of the day, rituals for eating, etc.
(and of course the big ones, such as Sabbath observance). Now, granted,
certainly not all Jews are that observant, but my point is simply that it's
very difficult to distinguish between Jewish religious practice and Jewish
culture.

So, it is a tad unnerving when someone says they are anti-Jewish *or*
anti-Judaism. Even though the two may have different meanings, throughout
history a lot of people haven't bothered to distinguish between people and
religion.
Post by Caiaphas
I agree with Pastor Franks position where he alludes that we prefer that
modern-day Israel be a Christian country instead of a country that promotes a
religion that is opposed to Christ.
Understood. Christianity prefers that every country be a Christian country.
These days, it pursues that agenda in a way that is socially and (generally)
morally acceptable -- i.e. by rhetorical persuasion, rather than force.
Fine. I personally would prefer to see Israel remain Jewish (and believe it
will) if for no other reason than that of religious diversity, but you're
free to try. On the other hand, in days past it has not always pursued its
agenda in ways that could be considered moral by any stretch of the
imagination, so you will, I'm sure, forgive non-Christians, and especially
Jews, if they find Christian evangelical zeal occasionally nerve-wracking.

It reminds me of a particularly poignant exchange I once read of, recorded
by a Baptist minister, Charles Kimball. (I'm going from memory here, so
this is not word-for-word accurate.) He and a well-known rabbi were going
to see the President on behalf of an ecumenical commission. I don't
remember what their purpose was -- I think it had something to do with a
combined Christian-Jewish-Muslim effort on behalf of the poor. After coming
out of the office, the rabbi cleared his throat and said to Kimball, "I'm
very glad we're doing this, Charles. We're making progress and I think our
two faiths working together is really making a difference. But I have to
admit to this you, to get it off my chest -- sometimes it makes me nervous.
It's difficult for us to trust a Christian church. Sometimes 1500 years of
Christian love is almost more than we can bear."

So, there it is. I think that in general, these two monotheisms are making
progress in understanding each other. Hopefully, Islam, Judaism, and
Christianity will one day acheive a more neighborly (in the Biblical sense)
understanding of one another.

Warm regards,

Jessica
Caiaphas
2003-07-24 23:21:41 UTC
Permalink
Pastor Frank,

I read the article on Dispensationalism you provided and I agree with it. Too
bad most Christians do not read their Bibles because if they did this heresy
that Falwell and Robinson is espousing would make them laughing stocks.

-- Caiaphas



"DISPENSATIONALISM IMPACTING U.S. FOREIGN POLICY"

By Tom Valentine
Published in THE SPOTLIGHT national newspaper

During the 19th century, long after the birth of Christ, a former
con-man came up with his own twist on the teachings of the Bible that is
taught by some people virtually as "scripture." It is having a major impact
on the world today, particularly U.S. policy in the Mideast.
This peculiar philosophy, known as "dispensationalism" is political, and
most emphatically not biblical. Yet many Christians in America consider it
"gospel." It states, that since YHWH gave Palestine to the Jews, whatever
the Jews do to the Palestinian natives to take the land, then and now, is
"God's will" and must be supported.
A courageous author who has investigated this bizarre phenomenon was the
guest on the Jan. 15 broadcast of The SPOTLIGHT's weekly call-in talk forum,
Radio Free America, with host Tom Valentine.
The guest, Grace Halsell, a veteran international journalist, author of 10
books and a professing, Bible-believing Christian, described her findings
regarding this influential politico-religious force in her new book, Forcing
God's Hand: Why Millions Pray for a Quick Rapture, which is available for
$12 from Liberty Library, 300 Independence Avenue, SE, Washington, D.C.
20003.
What follows is an edited transcript of the interview with Ms. Halsell.
Valentine's questions are in boldface. Ms. Halsell's responses are in
regular text.
How did you come about writing this book?
Let me go back to the very beginning. I've written a number of books and
lived around the world in many different countries. I was born in Texas and
I set out very early to see the world: Japan, South America etc. Actually, I
went to the Middle East after I had been almost every place else and I did a
book, Journey to Jerusalem. This was about 20 years ago. In that book, I
lived with the Christians and Muslims and Jews and told their story and how
they were living in Palestine and Israel.
One day I started living with the Jewish settlers who were taking land
illegally from the Palestinians and many of these Jews were Americans who
had moved over there from Brooklyn, N.Y. One of these was Bobby Brown, a
third generation American who had moved to the Middle East. Sitting in this
illegal colony outside Bethlehem, I heard Brown say, "You know God gave us
all this land and the Palestinians all have to leave."
That hit me very hard because I had to ask myself what I believed as a
Christian. Was God in the real estate business? Was he really giving land
and taking it away from the people who had been living there for about 2,000
years?
So that question in my mind stayed with me and then later I began to
take these tours with Jerry Falwell and meet Christians who condoned what
Bobby Brown was doing, which was taking guns and illegally confiscating land
from the owners who lived there. This led to this latest book, which is
called Forcing God's Hand: Why Millions Pray for a Quick Rapture.
I would assume that the Jews living there (and being Old Testament
people) would say, "Well, God dealt in real estate then. Why not now?"
That's correct. So these are the questions I raised and which I am raising
in this current book. I think, I definitely do answer the question in the
book. As a Christian, I think I believe in the message of Christ, which is
peace and brotherhood and love and not murder and not confiscation of land.
I very definitely come out and say that Christ's message is what we need to
accept if we want peace in the world.
You're originally from Texas. In your book you examine how the Southern
Baptist Convention has been manipulated by this theory.
There are 16 million Southern Baptist Convention members and the entire
leadership has been taken over by this group of what I call, these "militant
Christians" who support Israel ,and whatever Israel does. You know, you can
criticize France or China or even the United States, but you're not supposed
to criticize Israel because the Southern Baptist convention leadership says
that everything Israel does is orchestrated by God.
That's a very unique perspective and many of the big television
evangelists promote this point of view. In your book you explain that the
Southern Baptists were actually taken over by these people who say that you
aren't supposed to criticize Israel in what was essentially a political
coup.
It really was. It started in the 1960s, led by two men, and it became
very political. It was a real coup. They took it over and turned it
political. It became such a big force that they are very active in politics
and they can actually be highly influential in politics, telling people whom
to vote for.
This idea that Israel can do no wrong and that everything Israel does is
directed by God, actually came to the American Christian churches out of
England through a theory called "dispensationalism."
Yes, this is quite a new belief theory, that didn't exist in
Christianity for 1,800 years. It came about just 200 years ago. It
originated in England with a man named Darby and it was made popular in this
country by Cyrus Scofield through his reference Bible. He wrote his theory
within his Bible, on the margin, so that it became like a reference book.
But some people reading that book take his words as almost the word of God.
He believed that everything important in all of history must center around
Israel. Everything.
I became a Christian about 15 years ago after having explored a lot of
different philosophies. When I started looking into Christianity, I came
across this Scofield philosophy and it's quite influential. I found that the
Moody Bible Institute was promoting Scofieldism.
So many seminaries are owned or controlled by them. The seedbed for this
is the theological seminary in Dallas and they educate all of the professors
who go out and head up other seminaries. So it's a vast, growing movement
with all of the teachers and students who are learning this. There are
countless seminaries teaching this doctrine.
I rejected Scofieldism when I investigated it, and I see it as being
much more political than it is "Christian." It is highly political and it
gets so that it controls what goes on in the White House and controls what
goes on in Congress. It's a vast number of Christians who are influencing
Congress and the president. I give any number of examples in the book.
An article in The SPOTLIGHT written by Charles Fischbein, a former
high-ranking figure in the Israeli lobby in America, pointed out that even
former President Reagan and his attorney general, Edwin Meese, were praying
for Armageddon to come during the Reagan era. Yes, that is very true. Ronald
Reagan was tied very much into this belief system.
What exactly is it, that they believe?
Well, Reagan undoubtedly tied in with this idea, that there has to be an
Armageddon. The reason they support Israel so much is, that they say Israel
has to be the "landing base" for Christ. And while many of these people
don't like Jews as Jews, they do love Israel and make a cult of the land of
Israel and they want everything protected for Israel and what Israel wants,
they say Israel should get, since Israel has to be the "landing base" for
Christ.
I read the Bible for myself and I didn't see anywhere that Christ needed
a landing base. (Laughing.) It does get a little absurd, doesn't it? Well,
Christ is king in our hearts and whatever he wants will be done and I think
he's been crowned king for all Christians already.
It seems like these Scofieldian dispensationalists who say we must
support Israel are saying that, "Christ didn't do it right the first time,
so he's got to do it over."
Well, they want to force God's hand. God has to do it their way. It's pretty
egotistical on their part, it seems to me, instead of "Thy will be done." It
is like writing dogma your own way, and, as I said, it is a fairly recent
dogma and it has become kind of a cult.
I guess they get a lot of pleasure and satisfaction with the certitude
that they can say like Jerry Falwell: "I'm not worried about Armageddon. You
know why? I ain't gonna be here." It's like the idea that "me and my crowd
are sure to be raptured and sit in the sky in grandstand seats and watch the
destruction of earth below with all of the millions, billions, of other
people being destroyed."
In other words, the followers of this theory, that Scofield concocted
and which has now become influential in so-called "mainstream" Christian
thinking believe, that they are going to be looking down and watching the
people on earth murdering each other. It sounds to me like they are the
ancient Romans and the others are the ones in the lion's den. It doesn't
sound Christ-like to me at all, that Christ would enjoy watching people
burn. But as Jerry Falwell said, "I'm not worried . . . I ain't gonna be
here."
In the meantime, though, they have this very, very powerful alliance and
it gives them a lot of recognition and gives them a vast following. Tim
LaHaye sells millions of copies of his book about the rapture. Hal Lindsay's
book, The Late Great Planet Earth, was a major best-seller. I read Lindsay's
book right after I became a Christian and I couldn't find where he was
making these connections.
This is a danger to America, because so many millions of people readily
buy into this theory that's being taught by LaHaye and Falwell and Pat
Robertson. It's no wonder that the Muslims are upset when they hear Falwell
and Robertson talking the way they do. Pat Robertson is an extremely
powerful man. You point out in your book that in 1982 when Israel invaded
Lebanon, Pat Robertson rode into the fray in an Israeli jeep. In the war
that followed, 200,000 Lebanese and Palestinians were killed and wounded.
Robertson said that Israel was "doing God's will." He actually believed
that?
Oh yes, this cult of Israel is so real to some people. It's rather
frightening. What interests me is that some of these Christian churches are
now sponsoring the appearance in their churches of Solomon Gershon whose
mission in life is to replace the Muslim mosque there in Jerusalem that is
holy to a billion Muslims around the world. He wants to rebuild Solomon's
temple at that spot and he's worked very hard to breed up a red calf. Yes,
he wants to sacrifice a red calf there. But, of course, the mosque has to be
destroyed and that could trigger a war very easily. However, they don't
worry about that. And Christians are raising money to promote this. This is
very real and Christians are raising money for an impending act of
terrorism. Already there have been over 100 assaults on that mosque.
By far the most powerful lobby in America is the pro-Israel lobby and
now we have Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and all of their followers and
they all believe that Israel can do no wrong. It is a powerful alliance
between these militant Israelis and these militant Christians. No wonder
that Israel gets all of this foreign and military aid from the United States
and has for decades. And the Israelis, in addition, have been selling
high-tech weaponry to the Red Chinese and only The SPOTLIGHT was reporting
it. This all ties in to what you are talking about regarding this alliance
between the militant Israelis and the militant Christians.
Neither one would be so strong without the other.
You can't call it an Israeli philosophy, though. It's actually a really
weird twist on Christianity, that is only 200 years old and has no
connection with the Bible or anything in Christianity's history. How in the
world could Darby, the English originator of this theory convince anybody of
this? Actually, the ones who got convinced were the Americans. It was not a
big movement in England. But now these militant Christian evangelists such
as Falwell and Robertson are beaming this theory around the world with their
satellites.
You point out in your book that in March 1985, Jerry Falwell, speaking to an
assembly of rabbis in Miami, pledged to "mobilize 70 million conservative
Christians for Israel." Falwell also took credit for converting Sen. Jesse
Helms (R-N.C.) into one of Israel's staunchest allies and then Helms soon
was permitted to become chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Commit tee.
So is it Christianity or is it politics in Christian clothing?
I did document the fact, that Israel had given Jerry Falwell a jet
airplane, which is a nice gift. He uses it to go around and he uses that
jet, politically, I would say. I personally heard Jerry Falwell thank
Israeli leader Moshe Arens when I was traveling with Falwell. He didn't know
I was writing a book, but I traveled with two of his delegations that went
to Israel.


http://www.spotlight.org/02_02_00/Valentine/valentine.html


Published in THE SPOTLIGHT national newspaper
John Vogel
2003-07-25 23:29:57 UTC
Permalink
Pastor Frank,
I read the article on Dispensationalism you provided and I agree with it. Too
bad most Christians do not read their Bibles because if they did this heresy
that Falwell and Robinson is espousing would make them laughing stocks.
-- Caiaphas
You mean these preachers aren't preaching the Word of God? How can this be?
They're quoting from the bible, arent they? Are you accusing Falwell and
Robinson of heresy? Do you have any evidence of this?





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Caiaphas
2003-07-25 21:47:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Caiaphas
A lot of times we use Jew, Jewish, etc. in ways that others could
Post by Caiaphas
perceive as anti-Semitic. You mentioned that there are a lot of
'crazies'
Post by Caiaphas
on
Post by Caiaphas
the internet, Pastor Frank is definitely one of them,
Thanks, I owe you one. LOL
Please accept my appologies Pastor Frank. I left out the word 'not' -- I
meant
"You mentioned that there are a lot of 'crazies' on the internet, Pastor
Frank
is definitely NOT one of them."
Again, my appologies.
That's alright, Caiaphas, despite the misnomer. I know you as a man of
God, and you can call me anything you want. As long as you are into praise
and worship as a opposed to criticism and condemnation, (as was Caiaphas the
high priest) I won't take offence.
Yes, I am into praise and worship and especially within the Christian community
I am against criticism and condemnation. I do though question some doctrines
especially the Dispensational doctrine, and question Christian support of the
religion Judaism. I think this is not criticism and condemnation but instead
standing up for Christian principles.
Post by Caiaphas
--
Pastor Frank
2Tm:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable
Jesus in Jn:5:39: Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have
eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Pastor Frank
2003-07-27 02:30:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Caiaphas
A lot of times we use Jew, Jewish, etc. in ways that others could
Post by Caiaphas
perceive as anti-Semitic. You mentioned that there are a lot of
'crazies'
Post by Caiaphas
on
Post by Caiaphas
the internet, Pastor Frank is definitely one of them,
Thanks, I owe you one. LOL
Please accept my appologies Pastor Frank. I left out the word 'not' -- I
meant
"You mentioned that there are a lot of 'crazies' on the internet, Pastor
Frank
is definitely NOT one of them."
Again, my appologies.
That's alright, Caiaphas, despite the misnomer. I know you as a man of
God, and you can call me anything you want. As long as you are into praise
and worship as a opposed to criticism and condemnation, (as was Caiaphas the
high priest) I won't take offence.
Yes, I am into praise and worship and especially within the Christian community
I am against criticism and condemnation. I do though question some doctrines
especially the Dispensational doctrine, and question Christian support of the
religion Judaism. I think this is not criticism and condemnation but instead
standing up for Christian principles.
Right you are Caiaphas!!! There is nothing wrong with criticism in order
to contrast a proposal for improvement. Satan however only accuses and
criticises 1. without presenting evidence of a problem, and 2. without ever
proposing any solution to the problem.
As to dispensationalism, I can't remember whether I sent you an
excellent article on this matter, so you will find a copy below, possibly
for the second time.
--
Pastor Frank

"DISPENSATIONALISM IMPACTING U.S. FOREIGN POLICY"

By Tom Valentine
Published in THE SPOTLIGHT national newspaper

During the 19th century, long after the birth of Christ, a former
con-man came up with his own twist on the teachings of the Bible that is
taught by some people virtually as "scripture." It is having a major impact
on the world today, particularly U.S. policy in the Mideast.
This peculiar philosophy, known as "dispensationalism" is political, and
most emphatically not biblical. Yet many Christians in America consider it
"gospel." It states, that since YHWH gave Palestine to the Jews, whatever
the Jews do to the Palestinian natives to take the land, then and now, is
"God's will" and must be supported.
A courageous author who has investigated this bizarre phenomenon was the
guest on the Jan. 15 broadcast of The SPOTLIGHT's weekly call-in talk forum,
Radio Free America, with host Tom Valentine.
The guest, Grace Halsell, a veteran international journalist, author of 10
books and a professing, Bible-believing Christian, described her findings
regarding this influential politico-religious force in her new book, Forcing
God's Hand: Why Millions Pray for a Quick Rapture, which is available for
$12 from Liberty Library, 300 Independence Avenue, SE, Washington, D.C.
20003.
What follows is an edited transcript of the interview with Ms. Halsell.
Valentine's questions are in boldface. Ms. Halsell's responses are in
regular text.
How did you come about writing this book?
Let me go back to the very beginning. I've written a number of books and
lived around the world in many different countries. I was born in Texas and
I set out very early to see the world: Japan, South America etc. Actually, I
went to the Middle East after I had been almost every place else and I did a
book, Journey to Jerusalem. This was about 20 years ago. In that book, I
lived with the Christians and Muslims and Jews and told their story and how
they were living in Palestine and Israel.
One day I started living with the Jewish settlers who were taking land
illegally from the Palestinians and many of these Jews were Americans who
had moved over there from Brooklyn, N.Y. One of these was Bobby Brown, a
third generation American who had moved to the Middle East. Sitting in this
illegal colony outside Bethlehem, I heard Brown say, "You know God gave us
all this land and the Palestinians all have to leave."
That hit me very hard because I had to ask myself what I believed as a
Christian. Was God in the real estate business? Was he really giving land
and taking it away from the people who had been living there for about 2,000
years?
So that question in my mind stayed with me and then later I began to
take these tours with Jerry Falwell and meet Christians who condoned what
Bobby Brown was doing, which was taking guns and illegally confiscating land
from the owners who lived there. This led to this latest book, which is
called Forcing God's Hand: Why Millions Pray for a Quick Rapture.
I would assume that the Jews living there (and being Old Testament
people) would say, "Well, God dealt in real estate then. Why not now?"
That's correct. So these are the questions I raised and which I am raising
in this current book. I think, I definitely do answer the question in the
book. As a Christian, I think I believe in the message of Christ, which is
peace and brotherhood and love and not murder and not confiscation of land.
I very definitely come out and say that Christ's message is what we need to
accept if we want peace in the world.
You're originally from Texas. In your book you examine how the Southern
Baptist Convention has been manipulated by this theory.
There are 16 million Southern Baptist Convention members and the entire
leadership has been taken over by this group of what I call, these "militant
Christians" who support Israel ,and whatever Israel does. You know, you can
criticize France or China or even the United States, but you're not supposed
to criticize Israel because the Southern Baptist convention leadership says
that everything Israel does is orchestrated by God.
That's a very unique perspective and many of the big television
evangelists promote this point of view. In your book you explain that the
Southern Baptists were actually taken over by these people who say that you
aren't supposed to criticize Israel in what was essentially a political
coup.
It really was. It started in the 1960s, led by two men, and it became
very political. It was a real coup. They took it over and turned it
political. It became such a big force that they are very active in politics
and they can actually be highly influential in politics, telling people whom
to vote for.
This idea that Israel can do no wrong and that everything Israel does is
directed by God, actually came to the American Christian churches out of
England through a theory called "dispensationalism."
Yes, this is quite a new belief theory, that didn't exist in
Christianity for 1,800 years. It came about just 200 years ago. It
originated in England with a man named Darby and it was made popular in this
country by Cyrus Scofield through his reference Bible. He wrote his theory
within his Bible, on the margin, so that it became like a reference book.
But some people reading that book take his words as almost the word of God.
He believed that everything important in all of history must center around
Israel. Everything.
I became a Christian about 15 years ago after having explored a lot of
different philosophies. When I started looking into Christianity, I came
across this Scofield philosophy and it's quite influential. I found that the
Moody Bible Institute was promoting Scofieldism.
So many seminaries are owned or controlled by them. The seedbed for this
is the theological seminary in Dallas and they educate all of the professors
who go out and head up other seminaries. So it's a vast, growing movement
with all of the teachers and students who are learning this. There are
countless seminaries teaching this doctrine.
I rejected Scofieldism when I investigated it, and I see it as being
much more political than it is "Christian." It is highly political and it
gets so that it controls what goes on in the White House and controls what
goes on in Congress. It's a vast number of Christians who are influencing
Congress and the president. I give any number of examples in the book.
An article in The SPOTLIGHT written by Charles Fischbein, a former
high-ranking figure in the Israeli lobby in America, pointed out that even
former President Reagan and his attorney general, Edwin Meese, were praying
for Armageddon to come during the Reagan era. Yes, that is very true. Ronald
Reagan was tied very much into this belief system.
What exactly is it, that they be lieve?
Well, Reagan undoubtedly tied in with this idea, that there has to be an
Armageddon. The reason they support Israel so much is, that they say Israel
has to be the "landing base" for Christ. And while many of these people
don't like Jews as Jews, they do love Israel and make a cult of the land of
Israel and they want everything protected for Israel and what Israel wants,
they say Israel should get, since Israel has to be the "landing base" for
Christ.
I read the Bible for myself and I didn't see anywhere that Christ needed
a landing base. (Laughing.) It does get a little absurd, doesn't it? Well,
Christ is king in our hearts and whatever he wants will be done and I think
he's been crowned king for all Christians already.
It seems like these Scofieldian dispensationalists who say we must
support Israel are saying that, "Christ didn't do it right the first time,
so he's got to do it over."
Well, they want to force God's hand. God has to do it their way. It's pretty
egotistical on their part, it seems to me, instead of "Thy will be done." It
is like writing dogma your own way, and, as I said, it is a fairly recent
dogma and it has become kind of a cult.
I guess they get a lot of pleasure and satisfaction with the certitude
that they can say like Jerry Falwell: "I'm not worried about Armageddon. You
know why? I ain't gonna be here." It's like the idea that "me and my crowd
are sure to be raptured and sit in the sky in grandstand seats and watch the
destruction of earth below with all of the millions, billions, of other
people being destroyed."
In other words, the followers of this theory, that Scofield concocted
and which has now become influential in so-called "mainstream" Christian
thinking believe, that they are going to be looking down and watching the
people on earth murdering each other. It sounds to me like they are the
ancient Romans and the others are the ones in the lion's den. It doesn't
sound Christ-like to me at all, that Christ would enjoy watching people
burn. But as Jerry Falwell said, "I'm not worried . . . I ain't gonna be
here."
In the meantime, though, they have this very, very powerful alliance and
it gives them a lot of recognition and gives them a vast following. Tim
LaHaye sells millions of copies of his book about the rapture. Hal Lindsay's
book, The Late Great Planet Earth, was a major best-seller. I read Lindsay's
book right after I became a Christian and I couldn't find where he was
making these connections.
This is a danger to America, because so many millions of people readily
buy into this theory that's being taught by LaHaye and Falwell and Pat
Robertson. It's no wonder that the Muslims are upset when they hear Falwell
and Robertson talking the way they do. Pat Robertson is an extremely
powerful man. You point out in your book that in 1982 when Israel invaded
Lebanon, Pat Robertson rode into the fray in an Israeli jeep. In the war
that followed, 200,000 Lebanese and Palestinians were killed and wounded.
Robertson said that Israel was "doing God's will." He actually believed
that?
Oh yes, this cult of Israel is so real to some people. It's rather
frightening. What interests me is that some of these Christian churches are
now sponsoring the appearance in their churches of Solomon Gershon whose
mission in life is to replace the Muslim mosque there in Jerusalem that is
holy to a billion Muslims around the world. He wants to rebuild Solomon's
temple at that spot and he's worked very hard to breed up a red calf. Yes,
he wants to sacrifice a red calf there. But, of course, the mosque has to be
destroyed and that could trigger a war very easily. However, they don't
worry about that. And Christians are raising money to promote this. This is
very real and Christians are raising money for an impending act of
terrorism. Already there have been over 100 assaults on that mosque.
By far the most powerful lobby in America is the pro-Israel lobby and
now we have Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and all of their followers and
they all believe that Israel can do no wrong. It is a powerful alliance
between these militant Israelis and these militant Christians. No wonder
that Israel gets all of this foreign and military aid from the United States
and has for decades. And the Israelis, in addition, have been selling
high-tech weaponry to the Red Chinese and only The SPOTLIGHT was reporting
it. This all ties in to what you are talking about regarding this alliance
between the militant Is raelis and the militant Christians.
Neither one would be so strong without the other.
You can't call it an Israeli philosophy, though. It's actually a really
weird twist on Christianity, that is only 200 years old and has no
connection with the Bible or anything in Christianity's history. How in the
world could Darby, the English originator of this theory convince anybody of
this? Actually, the ones who got convinced were the Americans. It was not a
big movement in England. But now these militant Christian evangelists such
as Falwell and Robertson are beaming this theory around the world with their
satellites.
You point out in your book that in March 1985, Jerry Falwell, speaking to an
assembly of rabbis in Miami, pledged to "mobilize 70 million conservative
Christians for Israel." Falwell also took credit for converting Sen. Jesse
Helms (R-N.C.) into one of Israel's staunchest allies and then Helms soon
was permitted to become chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Commit tee.
So is it Christianity or is it politics in Christian clothing?
I did document the fact, that Israel had given Jerry Falwell a jet
airplane, which is a nice gift. He uses it to go around and he uses that
jet, politically, I would say. I personally heard Jerry Falwell thank
Israeli leader Moshe Arens when I was traveling with Falwell. He didn't know
I was writing a book, but I traveled with two of his delegations that went
to Israel.


http://www.spotlight.org/02_02_00/Valentine/valentine.html


Published in THE SPOTLIGHT national newspaper
Pastor Frank
2003-07-24 11:20:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jessica L. Price
Post by Pastor Frank
We are to cultivate "anti-Jewish feelings" as long as Caiaphas is
being justified in Israel, but in answer, the preaching of the Christian
gospels is prohibited.
I'm not precisely sure what you mean by that.
It means, that along with the Islamic countries in the area, Israel
allows no Christian missionaries in Israel, and it is strictly forbidden to
preach Christ an His love and grace in Israel.
We Christians are being asked to take their side in reclaiming the land
they occupied by slaughtering the entire native population as documented in
the OT, and are now to condone silently the attrocities they inflict upon
Palestinians in the name of dispensationalism.
I believe Christ and in Him only, and when He says love and care for
others as you care about yourself, then I cannot justify what the Jews have
done, and are still doing. Where all moderrn nations seek to accommodate
multi-ethnicity, and multi-culturalism, Israel is being xenophobic and into
dispossession, ethnic cleansing and ethnic oppression.
Read below about the curse of dispensationalism
--
Pastor Frank

"DISPENSATIONALISM IMPACTING U.S. FOREIGN POLICY"

By Tom Valentine
Published in THE SPOTLIGHT national newspaper

During the 19th century, long after the birth of Christ, a former
con-man came up with his own twist on the teachings of the Bible that is
taught by some people virtually as "scripture." It is having a major impact
on the world today, particularly U.S. policy in the Mideast.
This peculiar philosophy, known as "dispensationalism" is political, and
most emphatically not biblical. Yet many Christians in America consider it
"gospel." It states, that since YHWH gave Palestine to the Jews, whatever
the Jews do to the Palestinian natives to take the land, then and now, is
"God's will" and must be supported.
A courageous author who has investigated this bizarre phenomenon was the
guest on the Jan. 15 broadcast of The SPOTLIGHT's weekly call-in talk forum,
Radio Free America, with host Tom Valentine.
The guest, Grace Halsell, a veteran international journalist, author of 10
books and a professing, Bible-believing Christian, described her findings
regarding this influential politico-religious force in her new book, Forcing
God's Hand: Why Millions Pray for a Quick Rapture, which is available for
$12 from Liberty Library, 300 Independence Avenue, SE, Washington, D.C.
20003.
What follows is an edited transcript of the interview with Ms. Halsell.
Valentine's questions are in boldface. Ms. Halsell's responses are in
regular text.
How did you come about writing this book?
Let me go back to the very beginning. I've written a number of books and
lived around the world in many different countries. I was born in Texas and
I set out very early to see the world: Japan, South America etc. Actually, I
went to the Middle East after I had been almost every place else and I did a
book, Journey to Jerusalem. This was about 20 years ago. In that book, I
lived with the Christians and Muslims and Jews and told their story and how
they were living in Palestine and Israel.
One day I started living with the Jewish settlers who were taking land
illegally from the Palestinians and many of these Jews were Americans who
had moved over there from Brooklyn, N.Y. One of these was Bobby Brown, a
third generation American who had moved to the Middle East. Sitting in this
illegal colony outside Bethlehem, I heard Brown say, "You know God gave us
all this land and the Palestinians all have to leave."
That hit me very hard because I had to ask myself what I believed as a
Christian. Was God in the real estate business? Was he really giving land
and taking it away from the people who had been living there for about 2,000
years?
So that question in my mind stayed with me and then later I began to
take these tours with Jerry Falwell and meet Christians who condoned what
Bobby Brown was doing, which was taking guns and illegally confiscating land
from the owners who lived there. This led to this latest book, which is
called Forcing God's Hand: Why Millions Pray for a Quick Rapture.
I would assume that the Jews living there (and being Old Testament
people) would say, "Well, God dealt in real estate then. Why not now?"
That's correct. So these are the questions I raised and which I am raising
in this current book. I think, I definitely do answer the question in the
book. As a Christian, I think I believe in the message of Christ, which is
peace and brotherhood and love and not murder and not confiscation of land.
I very definitely come out and say that Christ's message is what we need to
accept if we want peace in the world.
You're originally from Texas. In your book you examine how the Southern
Baptist Convention has been manipulated by this theory.
There are 16 million Southern Baptist Convention members and the entire
leadership has been taken over by this group of what I call, these "militant
Christians" who support Israel ,and whatever Israel does. You know, you can
criticize France or China or even the United States, but you're not supposed
to criticize Israel because the Southern Baptist convention leadership says
that everything Israel does is orchestrated by God.
That's a very unique perspective and many of the big television
evangelists promote this point of view. In your book you explain that the
Southern Baptists were actually taken over by these people who say that you
aren't supposed to criticize Israel in what was essentially a political
coup.
It really was. It started in the 1960s, led by two men, and it became
very political. It was a real coup. They took it over and turned it
political. It became such a big force that they are very active in politics
and they can actually be highly influential in politics, telling people whom
to vote for.
This idea that Israel can do no wrong and that everything Israel does is
directed by God, actually came to the American Christian churches out of
England through a theory called "dispensationalism."
Yes, this is quite a new belief theory, that didn't exist in
Christianity for 1,800 years. It came about just 200 years ago. It
originated in England with a man named Darby and it was made popular in this
country by Cyrus Scofield through his reference Bible. He wrote his theory
within his Bible, on the margin, so that it became like a reference book.
But some people reading that book take his words as almost the word of God.
He believed that everything important in all of history must center around
Israel. Everything.
I became a Christian about 15 years ago after having explored a lot of
different philosophies. When I started looking into Christianity, I came
across this Scofield philosophy and it's quite influential. I found that the
Moody Bible Institute was promoting Scofieldism.
So many seminaries are owned or controlled by them. The seedbed for this
is the theological seminary in Dallas and they educate all of the professors
who go out and head up other seminaries. So it's a vast, growing movement
with all of the teachers and students who are learning this. There are
countless seminaries teaching this doctrine.
I rejected Scofieldism when I investigated it, and I see it as being
much more political than it is "Christian." It is highly political and it
gets so that it controls what goes on in the White House and controls what
goes on in Congress. It's a vast number of Christians who are influencing
Congress and the president. I give any number of examples in the book.
An article in The SPOTLIGHT written by Charles Fischbein, a former
high-ranking figure in the Israeli lobby in America, pointed out that even
former President Reagan and his attorney general, Edwin Meese, were praying
for Armageddon to come during the Reagan era. Yes, that is very true. Ronald
Reagan was tied very much into this belief system.
What exactly is it, that they be lieve?
Well, Reagan undoubtedly tied in with this idea, that there has to be an
Armageddon. The reason they support Israel so much is, that they say Israel
has to be the "landing base" for Christ. And while many of these people
don't like Jews as Jews, they do love Israel and make a cult of the land of
Israel and they want everything protected for Israel and what Israel wants,
they say Israel should get, since Israel has to be the "landing base" for
Christ.
I read the Bible for myself and I didn't see anywhere that Christ needed
a landing base. (Laughing.) It does get a little absurd, doesn't it? Well,
Christ is king in our hearts and whatever he wants will be done and I think
he's been crowned king for all Christians already.
It seems like these Scofieldian dispensationalists who say we must
support Israel are saying that, "Christ didn't do it right the first time,
so he's got to do it over."
Well, they want to force God's hand. God has to do it their way. It's pretty
egotistical on their part, it seems to me, instead of "Thy will be done." It
is like writing dogma your own way, and, as I said, it is a fairly recent
dogma and it has become kind of a cult.
I guess they get a lot of pleasure and satisfaction with the certitude
that they can say like Jerry Falwell: "I'm not worried about Armageddon. You
know why? I ain't gonna be here." It's like the idea that "me and my crowd
are sure to be raptured and sit in the sky in grandstand seats and watch the
destruction of earth below with all of the millions, billions, of other
people being destroyed."
In other words, the followers of this theory, that Scofield concocted
and which has now become influential in so-called "mainstream" Christian
thinking believe, that they are going to be looking down and watching the
people on earth murdering each other. It sounds to me like they are the
ancient Romans and the others are the ones in the lion's den. It doesn't
sound Christ-like to me at all, that Christ would enjoy watching people
burn. But as Jerry Falwell said, "I'm not worried . . . I ain't gonna be
here."
In the meantime, though, they have this very, very powerful alliance and
it gives them a lot of recognition and gives them a vast following. Tim
LaHaye sells millions of copies of his book about the rapture. Hal Lindsay's
book, The Late Great Planet Earth, was a major best-seller. I read Lindsay's
book right after I became a Christian and I couldn't find where he was
making these connections.
This is a danger to America, because so many millions of people readily
buy into this theory that's being taught by LaHaye and Falwell and Pat
Robertson. It's no wonder that the Muslims are upset when they hear Falwell
and Robertson talking the way they do. Pat Robertson is an extremely
powerful man. You point out in your book that in 1982 when Israel invaded
Lebanon, Pat Robertson rode into the fray in an Israeli jeep. In the war
that followed, 200,000 Lebanese and Palestinians were killed and wounded.
Robertson said that Israel was "doing God's will." He actually believed
that?
Oh yes, this cult of Israel is so real to some people. It's rather
frightening. What interests me is that some of these Christian churches are
now sponsoring the appearance in their churches of Solomon Gershon whose
mission in life is to replace the Muslim mosque there in Jerusalem that is
holy to a billion Muslims around the world. He wants to rebuild Solomon's
temple at that spot and he's worked very hard to breed up a red calf. Yes,
he wants to sacrifice a red calf there. But, of course, the mosque has to be
destroyed and that could trigger a war very easily. However, they don't
worry about that. And Christians are raising money to promote this. This is
very real and Christians are raising money for an impending act of
terrorism. Already there have been over 100 assaults on that mosque.
By far the most powerful lobby in America is the pro-Israel lobby and
now we have Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and all of their followers and
they all believe that Israel can do no wrong. It is a powerful alliance
between these militant Israelis and these militant Christians. No wonder
that Israel gets all of this foreign and military aid from the United States
and has for decades. And the Israelis, in addition, have been selling
high-tech weaponry to the Red Chinese and only The SPOTLIGHT was reporting
it. This all ties in to what you are talking about regarding this alliance
between the militant Is raelis and the militant Christians.
Neither one would be so strong without the other.
You can't call it an Israeli philosophy, though. It's actually a really
weird twist on Christianity, that is only 200 years old and has no
connection with the Bible or anything in Christianity's history. How in the
world could Darby, the English originator of this theory convince anybody of
this? Actually, the ones who got convinced were the Americans. It was not a
big movement in England. But now these militant Christian evangelists such
as Falwell and Robertson are beaming this theory around the world with their
satellites.
You point out in your book that in March 1985, Jerry Falwell, speaking to an
assembly of rabbis in Miami, pledged to "mobilize 70 million conservative
Christians for Israel." Falwell also took credit for converting Sen. Jesse
Helms (R-N.C.) into one of Israel's staunchest allies and then Helms soon
was permitted to become chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Commit tee.
So is it Christianity or is it politics in Christian clothing?
I did document the fact, that Israel had given Jerry Falwell a jet
airplane, which is a nice gift. He uses it to go around and he uses that
jet, politically, I would say. I personally heard Jerry Falwell thank
Israeli leader Moshe Arens when I was traveling with Falwell. He didn't know
I was writing a book, but I traveled with two of his delegations that went
to Israel.


http://www.spotlight.org/02_02_00/Valentine/valentine.html


Published in THE SPOTLIGHT national newspaper
Caiaphas
2003-07-24 23:33:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Jessica L. Price
Post by Pastor Frank
We are to cultivate "anti-Jewish feelings" as long as Caiaphas is
being justified in Israel, but in answer, the preaching of the Christian
gospels is prohibited.
I'm not precisely sure what you mean by that.
It means, that along with the Islamic countries in the area, Israel
allows no Christian missionaries in Israel, and it is strictly forbidden to
preach Christ an His love and grace in Israel.
We Christians are being asked to take their side in reclaiming the land
they occupied by slaughtering the entire native population as documented in
the OT, and are now to condone silently the attrocities they inflict upon
Palestinians in the name of dispensationalism.
I believe Christ and in Him only, and when He says love and care for
others as you care about yourself, then I cannot justify what the Jews have
done, and are still doing. Where all moderrn nations seek to accommodate
multi-ethnicity, and multi-culturalism, Israel is being xenophobic and into
dispossession, ethnic cleansing and ethnic oppression.
Pastor Frank, I agree with your assessment and believe you are walking within
Gods Will on this.
Post by Pastor Frank
Read below about the curse of dispensationalism
--
Pastor Frank
"DISPENSATIONALISM IMPACTING U.S. FOREIGN POLICY"
By Tom Valentine
Published in THE SPOTLIGHT national newspaper
During the 19th century, long after the birth of Christ, a former
con-man came up with his own twist on the teachings of the Bible that is
taught by some people virtually as "scripture." It is having a major impact
on the world today, particularly U.S. policy in the Mideast.
This peculiar philosophy, known as "dispensationalism" is political, and
most emphatically not biblical. Yet many Christians in America consider it
"gospel." It states, that since YHWH gave Palestine to the Jews, whatever
the Jews do to the Palestinian natives to take the land, then and now, is
"God's will" and must be supported.
A courageous author who has investigated this bizarre phenomenon was the
guest on the Jan. 15 broadcast of The SPOTLIGHT's weekly call-in talk forum,
Radio Free America, with host Tom Valentine.
The guest, Grace Halsell, a veteran international journalist, author of 10
books and a professing, Bible-believing Christian, described her findings
regarding this influential politico-religious force in her new book, Forcing
God's Hand: Why Millions Pray for a Quick Rapture, which is available for
$12 from Liberty Library, 300 Independence Avenue, SE, Washington, D.C.
20003.
What follows is an edited transcript of the interview with Ms. Halsell.
Valentine's questions are in boldface. Ms. Halsell's responses are in
regular text.
How did you come about writing this book?
Let me go back to the very beginning. I've written a number of books and
lived around the world in many different countries. I was born in Texas and
I set out very early to see the world: Japan, South America etc. Actually, I
went to the Middle East after I had been almost every place else and I did a
book, Journey to Jerusalem. This was about 20 years ago. In that book, I
lived with the Christians and Muslims and Jews and told their story and how
they were living in Palestine and Israel.
One day I started living with the Jewish settlers who were taking land
illegally from the Palestinians and many of these Jews were Americans who
had moved over there from Brooklyn, N.Y. One of these was Bobby Brown, a
third generation American who had moved to the Middle East. Sitting in this
illegal colony outside Bethlehem, I heard Brown say, "You know God gave us
all this land and the Palestinians all have to leave."
That hit me very hard because I had to ask myself what I believed as a
Christian. Was God in the real estate business? Was he really giving land
and taking it away from the people who had been living there for about 2,000
years?
So that question in my mind stayed with me and then later I began to
take these tours with Jerry Falwell and meet Christians who condoned what
Bobby Brown was doing, which was taking guns and illegally confiscating land
from the owners who lived there. This led to this latest book, which is
called Forcing God's Hand: Why Millions Pray for a Quick Rapture.
I would assume that the Jews living there (and being Old Testament
people) would say, "Well, God dealt in real estate then. Why not now?"
That's correct. So these are the questions I raised and which I am raising
in this current book. I think, I definitely do answer the question in the
book. As a Christian, I think I believe in the message of Christ, which is
peace and brotherhood and love and not murder and not confiscation of land.
I very definitely come out and say that Christ's message is what we need to
accept if we want peace in the world.
You're originally from Texas. In your book you examine how the Southern
Baptist Convention has been manipulated by this theory.
There are 16 million Southern Baptist Convention members and the entire
leadership has been taken over by this group of what I call, these "militant
Christians" who support Israel ,and whatever Israel does. You know, you can
criticize France or China or even the United States, but you're not supposed
to criticize Israel because the Southern Baptist convention leadership says
that everything Israel does is orchestrated by God.
That's a very unique perspective and many of the big television
evangelists promote this point of view. In your book you explain that the
Southern Baptists were actually taken over by these people who say that you
aren't supposed to criticize Israel in what was essentially a political
coup.
It really was. It started in the 1960s, led by two men, and it became
very political. It was a real coup. They took it over and turned it
political. It became such a big force that they are very active in politics
and they can actually be highly influential in politics, telling people whom
to vote for.
This idea that Israel can do no wrong and that everything Israel does is
directed by God, actually came to the American Christian churches out of
England through a theory called "dispensationalism."
Yes, this is quite a new belief theory, that didn't exist in
Christianity for 1,800 years. It came about just 200 years ago. It
originated in England with a man named Darby and it was made popular in this
country by Cyrus Scofield through his reference Bible. He wrote his theory
within his Bible, on the margin, so that it became like a reference book.
But some people reading that book take his words as almost the word of God.
He believed that everything important in all of history must center around
Israel. Everything.
I became a Christian about 15 years ago after having explored a lot of
different philosophies. When I started looking into Christianity, I came
across this Scofield philosophy and it's quite influential. I found that the
Moody Bible Institute was promoting Scofieldism.
So many seminaries are owned or controlled by them. The seedbed for this
is the theological seminary in Dallas and they educate all of the professors
who go out and head up other seminaries. So it's a vast, growing movement
with all of the teachers and students who are learning this. There are
countless seminaries teaching this doctrine.
I rejected Scofieldism when I investigated it, and I see it as being
much more political than it is "Christian." It is highly political and it
gets so that it controls what goes on in the White House and controls what
goes on in Congress. It's a vast number of Christians who are influencing
Congress and the president. I give any number of examples in the book.
An article in The SPOTLIGHT written by Charles Fischbein, a former
high-ranking figure in the Israeli lobby in America, pointed out that even
former President Reagan and his attorney general, Edwin Meese, were praying
for Armageddon to come during the Reagan era. Yes, that is very true. Ronald
Reagan was tied very much into this belief system.
What exactly is it, that they be lieve?
Well, Reagan undoubtedly tied in with this idea, that there has to be an
Armageddon. The reason they support Israel so much is, that they say Israel
has to be the "landing base" for Christ. And while many of these people
don't like Jews as Jews, they do love Israel and make a cult of the land of
Israel and they want everything protected for Israel and what Israel wants,
they say Israel should get, since Israel has to be the "landing base" for
Christ.
I read the Bible for myself and I didn't see anywhere that Christ needed
a landing base. (Laughing.) It does get a little absurd, doesn't it? Well,
Christ is king in our hearts and whatever he wants will be done and I think
he's been crowned king for all Christians already.
It seems like these Scofieldian dispensationalists who say we must
support Israel are saying that, "Christ didn't do it right the first time,
so he's got to do it over."
Well, they want to force God's hand. God has to do it their way. It's pretty
egotistical on their part, it seems to me, instead of "Thy will be done." It
is like writing dogma your own way, and, as I said, it is a fairly recent
dogma and it has become kind of a cult.
I guess they get a lot of pleasure and satisfaction with the certitude
that they can say like Jerry Falwell: "I'm not worried about Armageddon. You
know why? I ain't gonna be here." It's like the idea that "me and my crowd
are sure to be raptured and sit in the sky in grandstand seats and watch the
destruction of earth below with all of the millions, billions, of other
people being destroyed."
In other words, the followers of this theory, that Scofield concocted
and which has now become influential in so-called "mainstream" Christian
thinking believe, that they are going to be looking down and watching the
people on earth murdering each other. It sounds to me like they are the
ancient Romans and the others are the ones in the lion's den. It doesn't
sound Christ-like to me at all, that Christ would enjoy watching people
burn. But as Jerry Falwell said, "I'm not worried . . . I ain't gonna be
here."
In the meantime, though, they have this very, very powerful alliance and
it gives them a lot of recognition and gives them a vast following. Tim
LaHaye sells millions of copies of his book about the rapture. Hal Lindsay's
book, The Late Great Planet Earth, was a major best-seller. I read Lindsay's
book right after I became a Christian and I couldn't find where he was
making these connections.
This is a danger to America, because so many millions of people readily
buy into this theory that's being taught by LaHaye and Falwell and Pat
Robertson. It's no wonder that the Muslims are upset when they hear Falwell
and Robertson talking the way they do. Pat Robertson is an extremely
powerful man. You point out in your book that in 1982 when Israel invaded
Lebanon, Pat Robertson rode into the fray in an Israeli jeep. In the war
that followed, 200,000 Lebanese and Palestinians were killed and wounded.
Robertson said that Israel was "doing God's will." He actually believed
that?
Oh yes, this cult of Israel is so real to some people. It's rather
frightening. What interests me is that some of these Christian churches are
now sponsoring the appearance in their churches of Solomon Gershon whose
mission in life is to replace the Muslim mosque there in Jerusalem that is
holy to a billion Muslims around the world. He wants to rebuild Solomon's
temple at that spot and he's worked very hard to breed up a red calf. Yes,
he wants to sacrifice a red calf there. But, of course, the mosque has to be
destroyed and that could trigger a war very easily. However, they don't
worry about that. And Christians are raising money to promote this. This is
very real and Christians are raising money for an impending act of
terrorism. Already there have been over 100 assaults on that mosque.
By far the most powerful lobby in America is the pro-Israel lobby and
now we have Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and all of their followers and
they all believe that Israel can do no wrong. It is a powerful alliance
between these militant Israelis and these militant Christians. No wonder
that Israel gets all of this foreign and military aid from the United States
and has for decades. And the Israelis, in addition, have been selling
high-tech weaponry to the Red Chinese and only The SPOTLIGHT was reporting
it. This all ties in to what you are talking about regarding this alliance
between the militant Is raelis and the militant Christians.
Neither one would be so strong without the other.
You can't call it an Israeli philosophy, though. It's actually a really
weird twist on Christianity, that is only 200 years old and has no
connection with the Bible or anything in Christianity's history. How in the
world could Darby, the English originator of this theory convince anybody of
this? Actually, the ones who got convinced were the Americans. It was not a
big movement in England. But now these militant Christian evangelists such
as Falwell and Robertson are beaming this theory around the world with their
satellites.
You point out in your book that in March 1985, Jerry Falwell, speaking to an
assembly of rabbis in Miami, pledged to "mobilize 70 million conservative
Christians for Israel." Falwell also took credit for converting Sen. Jesse
Helms (R-N.C.) into one of Israel's staunchest allies and then Helms soon
was permitted to become chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Commit tee.
So is it Christianity or is it politics in Christian clothing?
I did document the fact, that Israel had given Jerry Falwell a jet
airplane, which is a nice gift. He uses it to go around and he uses that
jet, politically, I would say. I personally heard Jerry Falwell thank
Israeli leader Moshe Arens when I was traveling with Falwell. He didn't know
I was writing a book, but I traveled with two of his delegations that went
to Israel.
http://www.spotlight.org/02_02_00/Valentine/valentine.html
Published in THE SPOTLIGHT national newspaper
Caiaphas
2003-07-23 18:09:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ron B.
Post by Caiaphas
Don't jump to conclusions. I was not masquarading as a Jew. I posted up front
that I was a Christian looking to learn about Judaism. The handle 'Caiaphas' is
just a name. Most Christians don't even know who the famous Caiaphas was - they
don't read the Bible. Feel good that you intelligent to recognize an
obscure characters name.
I'd hardly call Caiphas an obscure character. He is a central player in the
Synoptic's Passion Narrative. However, why do you say that "Most
Christians don't even know who the famous Caiaphas was"? Has this been
your experience? BTW, if you _were_ Jewish using this handle, it would be
evidence that you were anti-Christian.
Caiaphas and Annas were Jewish high priests who were instermental in having
Jesus crusified. But, there rolls were only a small part of Gospels. More
important individuals such as Christ, the 10 dispicles, John the Baptist, Mary,
Joseph, etc were the good guys, while Caiaphas and some of the Pharasiees were
the bad guys.

Lets get the record straight - I am not Jewish, I am Christian, I have not
masquaraded as a Jew, I am opposed to Judaism but not Jews as individuals.

Got to admit, those who know the Gospels well ponder on the 'Caiaphas' handle.
Caiaphas
2003-07-23 18:39:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Caiaphas
Don't jump to conclusions. I was not masquarading as a Jew. I posted up
front
Post by Caiaphas
that I was a Christian looking to learn about Judaism. The handle
'Caiaphas' is
Post by Caiaphas
just a name. Most Christians don't even know who the famous Caiaphas
was - they
Post by Caiaphas
don't read the Bible. Feel good that you intelligent to recognize an
obscure
Post by Caiaphas
characters name.
I accidentally replied to Ron's post, rather than yours, so I'll correct
that, with a few additional comments.
I don't know about Christians, but most Jews I know know very well who
Caiaphas is, and view him as an example of anti-Jewish sentiment in the NT.
Had I been a member of the newsgroup you were visiting, known you were
Christian and had picked that handle to interact with a Jewish newsgroup, it
would have made me a tad nervous about your attitude.
But I'm glad to hear that you don't harbor any such anti-Jewish feelings.
May I suggest that in the future, if you wish to learn about Judaism,
please, PLEASE, don't assume you can get an accurate picture from a
newsgroup? Let's say Christianity were not just a religion, but a people, a
history, a culture, etc. Would you really want someone who knew nothing
about it forming their opinions from this newsgroup? Newsgroups tend to
attract a lot of crazies and extremists.
If you are sincerely interested in learning about Judaism, please talk to
someone you know that is Jewish and ask them about it. Or visit a
synagogue. Most Reform congregations are very welcoming to visitors --
actually, most congregations in general are welcoming to visitors, but the
Reform congregations do a lot more in English. Most Jews in general are
delighted to meet someone who is actually interested in genuinely
understanding the religion, and not just viewing it as some sort of
eccentric and outdated form of pre-Christ Christianity with dietary laws and
"funny holidays." Also, most Jews view the very idea of proselytization
very negatively, so you don't have to worry that they'll try to convert you.
;-)
In general, Jews may be a bit more reserved about their religion then
members of other religions, because they don't want to do anything that
might be viewed as proselytization.
If, as a Christian, you are uncomfortable visiting a Jewish place of
worship, there are some messianic congregations. They believe that Jesus
was the Messiah but continue to identify with Jewish culture (i.e. they
believe that you can be Jewish and Christian, continue to celebrate Jewish
holidays, observe Jewish law, etc. and still believe in Christ). In
general, they seem much less reserved than non-messianic Jews and they are
Christian, so you might be more comfortable there, and can still learn a
great deal about Judaism as a culture, history and people. Of course, it
won't teach you as much about Judaism as a religion. I'd really suggest
visiting a Reform congregation, or just talking to Jews that you know.
Regards,
Jessica
Thanks Jessica, you seem like a genuinely sincere person and I appreciate the
tips on learning about Judaism. I am more interested in Judaism more so so I
can learn more about the context of the events in the New Testament. I don't
think I could or would convert to Judaism because of my beliefs. You are
absolutely right in that there are a lot of 'crazies' in the Newsgroups and
those crazies have probably shaped the impression I currently have of Judaism.
But, I am learning and studying and can be swayed. My Christian doctines have
dramatically changed over the last 2 years but even with that I am still within
the Christian camp. As diverse as the Christian community is, I can imagine the
divesity with in Judaism being large too.

Now you do understand that doctrinely, the religions of Christianity and Judaism
are opposed to each other and no Judeo-Christian belief system can do justice to
either Judaism or Christianity. But, even though we believe differently, this
still means that we should not mistreat or do injustice against anyone because
of his/her beliefs. I still like to debate with those who embrace Judaism both
because I like the intellectual exercise and because it helps me learn more
about Christianity.

Just to let you know a little about where I come from. I am assuming you
embrace Judaism??
Adario
2003-07-23 21:05:44 UTC
Permalink
As you mentioned in another post that you have Jews in your family, I
assume
that you recognize that Judaism is not just a religion, i.e. that it is
possible to be atheist and still be Jewish in the cultural sense. This is
why it disturbs me when I hear people talk about being "against Judaism,
but
not Jews."
You lost me. Most modern scholars believe Judaism was instituted in
Jerusalem after the Babylonian Exile. Most historians claim that prior to
the Exile, the inhabitants of the city of Salem or Judea should not be
called Jews for the reason that Judaism did not exist at that time, that
they should be identified as Judeans.
Today, a Jew is a Jew who identifies himself as such and true, some Atheists
identify themselves as Jews. Some Orthodox will tell you that unless one
follows the Jewish law, he is not a Jew. Others will say that if one's
mother was Jewess, the son is a Jew, Jewish.
Jewish is not a race. It's a culture, a way of life, a community, a people.
Originally, Jewish meant Judaist, a member of the Jewish faith we know as
Judaism. Judeans were not all Jews and Jews were not all Judeans.
I think you have been influenced by Jewish or Zionist propaganda who would
want all to believe that Jewish is a race of people, that Jews are
biological descendants of Abraham, of Sem, etc., etc. The old song.
Now when you say that "Judaism is not just a religion.... in the cultural
sense...", it's wrong. What you should have written is " Modern day Jewry is
not just a religion...."
Why can someone not be against Christianity and not against Christians? One
can be against Christianity and still respect Christians as human beings.
What's so special about Jews that one cannot be against Judaism without
being anti-Jews.
A person who joins the Christian faith is a Christian and a person who joins
the Jewish faith is a Jewish. Nothing to do with origins nor the shape of
one's nose.
Jessica L. Price
2003-07-23 22:53:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pastor Frank
As you mentioned in another post that you have Jews in your family, I
assume
that you recognize that Judaism is not just a religion, i.e. that it is
possible to be atheist and still be Jewish in the cultural sense. This is
why it disturbs me when I hear people talk about being "against Judaism,
but
not Jews."
You lost me. Most modern scholars believe Judaism was instituted in
Jerusalem after the Babylonian Exile. Most historians claim that prior to
the Exile, the inhabitants of the city of Salem or Judea should not be
called Jews for the reason that Judaism did not exist at that time, that
they should be identified as Judeans.
I'm reluctant to begin this discussion, as I'm afraid of where it will lead,
especially on a newsgroup dominated by Christians, but here goes...Please
read the entire post before responding. I've noticed that people around
here frequently tend to respond as soon as they see a sentence they disagree
with, without reading on to discover a possible explanation for the comment.

Yes, but most modern-day Jews are descendents of those Judeans. The
religion and the people are contiguous with the Judeans, even if many
Judeans assimilated into other populations, and even if members of other
people married into, converted into, or otherwise joined the Jewish People.
Prior to the Exile, the term Israelites or Judeans is usually used, but that
does not mean that those who returned to Jerusalem after the exile were not
members of the same people that had been deported from it. Actually, the
term "Judean" refers to a resident of Judea, after the Babylonian Exile.
Before then, you had "Israelites" and "Judahites" depending on whether one
lived in the northern kingdom of Israel or the southern kingdom of Judah.
Post by Pastor Frank
Today, a Jew is a Jew who identifies himself as such and true, some Atheists
identify themselves as Jews. Some Orthodox will tell you that unless one
follows the Jewish law, he is not a Jew. Others will say that if one's
mother was Jewess, the son is a Jew, Jewish.
There are differing opinions as to what consitutes Jewishness. Reform and
Conservative Jews generally acknowledge patrilineal descent as long as the
child is raised as a member of the Jewish community and publicly and
privately identifies with the Jewish people. Orthodox Jews insist that only
matrilineal descent counts. Either way, if your mother is Jewish, you are
Jewish as well, even if you don't follow the laws. If you are born Jewish
and do not follow halakha, Orthodox Jews will consider you to be a "bad
Jew," but only the extremists (generally, the Israeli ultra-orthodox
extremists) will deny that you are Jewish.
Post by Pastor Frank
Jewish is not a race. It's a culture, a way of life, a community, a people.
Originally, Jewish meant Judaist, a member of the Jewish faith we know as
Judaism. Judeans were not all Jews and Jews were not all Judeans.
I think you have been influenced by Jewish or Zionist propaganda who would
want all to believe that Jewish is a race of people, that Jews are
biological descendants of Abraham, of Sem, etc., etc. The old song.
Yes, it's a culture, a way of life, a community, a people, etc. There is an
ethnic component as well, as Jews consider themselves to be one people, in a
national sense, despite being scattered all over the world. Hence, descent
does matter, although it's not particularly important, since one can become
Jewish by converting. But Jews consider themselves to be the descendants of
Jacob. One might point out, lest you dismiss the importance of descent to
the conception of Jewishness, that one's status as a kohen or a Levite is
*still* determined entirely by one's father.

I was pretty sure that your etymology was mistaken, so I looked it up in the
Oxford English Dictionary. "Jew" is defined as "A person of Hebrew descent,
one whose religion is Judaism, an Israelite." So, the OED definition
acknowledges both the religious and ethnic dimensions. The word "Jew"
actually comes from "Judah," the founder of the tribe of Judah and the name
of the kingdom founded by the two non-lost tribes of Israel, the kingdom in
which David and Solomon had their royal city. The term does not come from
"Judaist," hence, in an etymological sense, it acknowledges a national
identity rather than a religious one.

I've *not* been influenced by propaganda, I've been influenced by the
history and teaching of a people who continue to consider themselves a
*people,* and not just members of the same religion.

Hence, my mentor's mother may be very upset that he is an atheist, but none
of us would ever think to suggest he isn't Jewish, himself most of all.
Post by Pastor Frank
Now when you say that "Judaism is not just a religion.... in the cultural
sense...", it's wrong. What you should have written is " Modern day Jewry is
not just a religion...."
Fine. Modern day Jewry does not all follow the religion referred to as
Judaism. Better?
Post by Pastor Frank
Why can someone not be against Christianity and not against Christians? One
can be against Christianity and still respect Christians as human beings.
Was anyone suggesting that it's not possible to be against Christianity but
still love and respect Christians? Certainly not. Many of us who are not
Christian find some aspects of Christianity slightly creepy, but still would
not consider ourselves "against Christians." It is certainly possible to
think that Christianity's rather a bad idea without wanting to see
Christians wiped out. But throughout history, a lot of people haven't made
that distinction when it comes to the Jews. A frequent *Church-supported*
attitude in Europe has been, "if they won't convert, kill 'em." In Spain,
Jews had the choice of converting or being thrown out. Minor Jewish
practices, such as removing the tendon from a leg of lamb or lighting
candles on Friday night and not blowing them out before you went to bed was
enough to bring the Inquisition down on you. Just ask Ines Lopez. Oh
that's right. Even if we were there in 1495, we couldn't ask her, since the
Inquisition executed her. Did she believe in Christ? No way to tell for
sure, since people will say anything under torture. But she made the
mistake of engaging in Jewish practices -- cultural practices, not
necessarily religious ones, and they...Well, trust me, you don't want to
know what they did to her. Was she Christian? Well, she publically
identified as a Christian, followed Christian practices, and so on. She
just kept certain elements of Jewish dietary laws, which could just as
easily have been cultural. For that matter, I'd be surprised if most
Christians found a lamb's sciatic nerve particularly appetizing, but hey,
some people will eat anything! Regardless, a dislike for non-meat parts of
animals can be ascribed to a cultural preference as easily as a religious
law, but historically, people haven't cared.

So, while I'm not to worried about anyone's ability to distinguish between
Christianity as a religion and Christians as people, I'm less comfy with
people's ability to distinguish between Judaism as a religion and Jews as a
people.
Post by Pastor Frank
What's so special about Jews that one cannot be against Judaism without
being anti-Jews.
Nothing. The only problem is that the border between Christianity and one's
peoplehood, one's nationality, one's ethnic descent, one's cultural norms,
etc. is much clearer than it is for Judaism. Hence, while the term
"Judaism" is generally used to refer to "the Jewish religion," I have heard
it applied to all of the above. Technically, of course, it would be better
to confine "Judaism" to the religion, and "the Jewish people" to the other
uses, but not everyone does. Hence, when someone tells me they're "against
Judaism," it starts to make me a wee bit uncomfortable.
Post by Pastor Frank
A person who joins the Christian faith is a Christian and a person who joins
the Jewish faith is a Jewish. Nothing to do with origins nor the shape of
one's nose.
Well, yes and no. A person who is not of Jewish descent and undergoes a
formal conversion is Jewish. But, as I understand it, one who accepts Jesus
Christ as their savior is Christian. Some groups require a baptism, but
that's all it takes. Simple acceptance of Jewish belief, even if one
combines it with Jewish practice, does not make one Jewish. That requires a
formal conversion and acceptance by a bet din. The Conservative and
Orthodox movements require a mikveh, a ritual bath, as well, according to
halakha. If you are male, the Reform and Conservative movements require a
symbolic circumcision, while last I heard the Orthodox still required a
literal one. Generally a year of study with a rabbi before conversion is
required. Throughout the process, it is generally emphasized that one is
joining a *people* not just a religion. And a convert is considered as
Jewish as a born Jew. If he or she converts to another religion, he or she
is not considered non-Jewish, he or she considered an apostate, just as a
born Jew would be. If she is female and has a child, the child is
automatically Jewish just as the child of a born Jewish woman would be. A
convert's parents are not considered part of the equation, as they are not
Jewish, so the convert's Hebrew name, rather than including their parent,
will generally include "son of Abraham" or "daughter of Sarah," as converts
are considered to be the spiritual children of the founders of the Jewish
people, who were themselves converts.

So the two types of conversion, Christian and Jewish, are not exactly
equivalent.

If you don't believe me, or want more information, I would suggest heading
over to jewish.com and utilizing their "Ask a Rabbi" feature. The rabbis
there are generally very friendly and helpful, to Jews and non-Jews alike.

So yes, origins do figure into it, even if they're not an essential part of
the equation.

As for the "shape of one's nose," comment, dear Lord, you don't have to tell
*me* that.

Regards,

Jessica
Caiaphas
2003-07-24 01:04:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jessica L. Price
There are differing opinions as to what consitutes Jewishness. Reform and
Conservative Jews generally acknowledge patrilineal descent as long as the
child is raised as a member of the Jewish community and publicly and
privately identifies with the Jewish people. Orthodox Jews insist that only
matrilineal descent counts.
Either way, if your mother is Jewish, you are
Jewish as well, even if you don't follow the laws.
Was it always that way? I mean the mother determining Jewishness?
Post by Jessica L. Price
Fine. Modern day Jewry does not all follow the religion referred to as
Judaism. Better?
I've had some on the newsgroups tell me that if a Jew accepted Christ, he/she
would be considered an apostate and a sinner. And, that person would have to
seek forgiveness in order to come back into the Jewish community.
Post by Jessica L. Price
Post by Adario
Why can someone not be against Christianity and not against Christians?
One
Post by Adario
can be against Christianity and still respect Christians as human beings.
Was anyone suggesting that it's not possible to be against Christianity but
still love and respect Christians? Certainly not. Many of us who are not
Christian find some aspects of Christianity slightly creepy, but still would
not consider ourselves "against Christians."
From a Jewish perspective, what are some aspects of Christianity that seem
"slightly creepy"?
Post by Jessica L. Price
Nothing. The only problem is that the border between Christianity and one's
peoplehood, one's nationality, one's ethnic descent, one's cultural norms,
etc. is much clearer than it is for Judaism. Hence, while the term
"Judaism" is generally used to refer to "the Jewish religion," I have heard
it applied to all of the above. Technically, of course, it would be better
to confine "Judaism" to the religion, and "the Jewish people" to the other
uses, but not everyone does. Hence, when someone tells me they're "against
Judaism," it starts to make me a wee bit uncomfortable.
That makes sense in that Christians can be opposed to Judaism the religion but
accept Jews and their Culture. Same with Islam - we should oppose Islam but
accept Arabs and their culture. Like Christ said, we should love our neighbors.
Pastor Frank
2003-07-29 00:41:50 UTC
Permalink
Yes, I am a member of the UMC and most Methodists are really good people.
Methodists have an 'official' church doctrine but often times its members
individually hold different doctrinal beliefs - some liberal and some very
conservative. But the UMC teaches tolerance and asks its members to reach
out
for 'dialog' with those of other faiths and today it encourages especially
a
dialog with those of Islamic faith. I kinda like their policy of wanting
members to get to know and understand others in other faiths and come to
an
understanding that we are all Gods Children. Within the UMC hierarchy,
you
don't hear condemnation of Mohammad or Islam like Jerry Fallwell and many
fundamentalist Baptist espouse.
We were discussing pro and anti-Semitism. There is a major problem with
being a Christian and being dispensationalist as well. Most Jews are
dispensationalists, and many Christians are trying to be both.
A Christian who believes in Christ and His Golden Rule, cannot be a
dispensationalist at the same time. The below will illustrate the issue.
--
Pastor Frank

THE GOLDEN RULE
Jesus in Mk 12:30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength:
this is the first commandment.
31: And the second is alike, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

"DISPENSATIONALISM IMPACTING U.S. FOREIGN POLICY"

By Tom Valentine
Published in THE SPOTLIGHT national newspaper

During the 19th century, long after the birth of Christ, a former
con-man came up with his own twist on the teachings of the Bible that is
taught by some people virtually as "scripture." It is having a major impact
on the world today, particularly U.S. policy in the Mideast.
This peculiar philosophy, known as "dispensationalism" is political, and
most emphatically not biblical. Yet many Christians in America consider it
"gospel." It states, that since YHWH gave Palestine to the Jews, whatever
the Jews do to the Palestinian natives to take the land, then and now, is
"God's will" and must be supported.
A courageous author who has investigated this bizarre phenomenon was
the guest on the Jan. 15 broadcast of The SPOTLIGHT's weekly call-in talk
forum, Radio Free America, with host Tom Valentine.
The guest, Grace Halsell, a veteran international journalist, author of 10
books and a professing, Bible-believing Christian, described her findings
regarding this influential politico-religious force in her new book, Forcing
God's Hand: Why Millions Pray for a Quick Rapture, which is available for
$12 from Liberty Library, 300 Independence Avenue, SE, Washington, D.C.
20003.
What follows is an edited transcript of the interview with Ms. Halsell.
Valentine's questions are in boldface. Ms. Halsell's responses are in
regular text.
How did you come about writing this book?
Let me go back to the very beginning. I've written a number of books and
lived around the world in many different countries. I was born in Texas and
I set out very early to see the world: Japan, South America etc. Actually, I
went to the Middle East after I had been almost every place else and I did a
book, Journey to Jerusalem. This was about 20 years ago. In that book, I
lived with the Christians and Muslims and Jews and told their story and how
they were living in Palestine and Israel.
One day I started living with the Jewish settlers who were taking land
illegally from the Palestinians and many of these Jews were Americans who
had moved over there from Brooklyn, N.Y. One of these was Bobby Brown, a
third generation American who had moved to the Middle East. Sitting in this
illegal colony outside Bethlehem, I heard Brown say, "You know God gave us
all this land and the Palestinians all have to leave."
That hit me very hard because I had to ask myself what I believed as a
Christian. Was God in the real estate business? Was he really giving land
and taking it away from the people who had been living there for about 2,000
years?
So that question in my mind stayed with me and then later I began to
take these tours with Jerry Falwell and meet Christians who condoned what
Bobby Brown was doing, which was taking guns and illegally confiscating land
from the owners who lived there. This led to this latest book, which is
called Forcing God's Hand: Why Millions Pray for a Quick Rapture.
I would assume that the Jews living there (and being Old Testament
people) would say, "Well, God dealt in real estate then. Why not now?"
That's correct. So these are the questions I raised and which I am raising
in this current book. I think, I definitely do answer the question in the
book. As a Christian, I think I believe in the message of Christ, which is
peace and brotherhood and love and not murder and not confiscation of land.
I very definitely come out and say that Christ's message is what we need to
accept if we want peace in the world.
You're originally from Texas. In your book you examine how the Southern
Baptist Convention has been manipulated by this theory.
There are 16 million Southern Baptist Convention members and the entire
leadership has been taken over by this group of what I call, these "militant
Christians" who support Israel, and whatever Israel does. You know, you can
criticize France or China or even the United States, but you're not supposed
to criticize Israel because the Southern Baptist convention leadership says
that everything Israel does is orchestrated by God.
That's a very unique perspective and many of the big television
evangelists promote this point of view. In your book you explain that the
Southern Baptists were actually taken over by these people who say that you
aren't supposed to criticize Israel in what was essentially a political
coup.
It really was. It started in the 1960s, led by two men, and it became
very political. It was a real coup. They took it over and turned it
political. It became such a big force that they are very active in politics
and they can actually be highly influential in politics, telling people whom
to vote for.
This idea that Israel can do no wrong and that everything Israel does is
directed by God, actually came to the American Christian churches out of
England through a theory called "dispensationalism."
Yes, this is quite a new belief theory, that didn't exist in
Christianity for
1,800 years. It came about just 200 years ago. It originated in England
with a man named Darby and it was made popular in this country by
Cyrus Scofield through his reference Bible. He wrote his theory within
his Bible, on the margin, so that it became like a reference book. But
some people reading that book take his words as almost the word of
God. He believed that everything important in all of history must center a
round Israel. Everything.
I became a Christian about 15 years ago after having explored a lot of
different philosophies. When I started looking into Christianity, I came
across this Scofield philosophy and it's quite influential. I found that the
Moody Bible Institute was promoting Scofieldism.
So many seminaries are owned or controlled by them. The seedbed for this
is the theological seminary in Dallas and they educate all of the professors
who go out and head up other seminaries. So it's a vast, growing movement
with all of the teachers and students who are learning this. There are
countless seminaries teaching this doctrine.
I rejected Scofieldism when I investigated it, and I see it as being
much more political than it is "Christian." It is highly political and it
gets so that it controls what goes on in the White House and controls what
goes on in Congress. It's a vast number of Christians who are influencing
Congress and the president. I give any number of examples in the book.
An article in The SPOTLIGHT written by Charles Fischbein, a former
high-ranking figure in the Israeli lobby in America, pointed out that even
former President Reagan and his attorney general, Edwin Meese, were praying
for Armageddon to come during the Reagan era. Yes, that is very true. Ronald
Reagan was tied very much into this belief system.
What exactly is it, that they be lieve?
Well, Reagan undoubtedly tied in with this idea, that there has to be an
Armageddon. The reason they support Israel so much is, that they say Israel
has to be the "landing base" for Christ. And while many of these people
don't like Jews as Jews, they do love Israel and make a cult of the land of
Israel and they want everything protected for Israel and what Israel wants,
they say Israel should get, since Israel has to be the "landing base" for
Christ.
I read the Bible for myself and I didn't see anywhere that Christ needed
a landing base. (Laughing.) It does get a little absurd, doesn't it? Well,
Christ is king in our hearts and whatever he wants will be done and I think
he's been crowned king for all Christians already.
It seems like these Scofieldian dispensationalists who say we must
support Israel are saying that, "Christ didn't do it right the first time,
so he's got to do it over."
Well, they want to force God's hand. God has to do it their way. It's pretty
egotistical on their part, it seems to me, instead of "Thy will be done." It
is like writing dogma your own way, and, as I said, it is a fairly recent
dogma and it has become kind of a cult.
I guess they get a lot of pleasure and satisfaction with the certitude
that they can say like Jerry Falwell: "I'm not worried about Armageddon. You
know why? I ain't gonna be here." It's like the idea that "me and my crowd
are sure to be raptured and sit in the sky in grandstand seats and watch the
destruction of earth below with all of the millions, billions, of other
people being destroyed."
In other words, the followers of this theory, that Scofield concocted
and which has now become influential in so-called "mainstream" Christian
thinking believe, that they are going to be looking down and watching the
people on earth murdering each other. It sounds to me like they are the
ancient Romans and the others are the ones in the lion's den. It doesn't
sound Christ-like to me at all, that Christ would enjoy watching people
burn. But as Jerry Falwell said, "I'm not worried . . . I ain't gonna be
here."
In the meantime, though, they have this very, very powerful alliance and
it gives them a lot of recognition and gives them a vast following. Tim
LaHaye sells millions of copies of his book about the rapture. Hal Lindsay's
book, The Late Great Planet Earth, was a major best-seller. I read Lindsay's
book right after I became a Christian and I couldn't find where he was
making these connections.
This is a danger to America, because so many millions of people readily
buy into this theory that's being taught by LaHaye and Falwell and Pat
Robertson. It's no wonder that the Muslims are upset when they hear Falwell
and Robertson talking the way they do. Pat Robertson is an extremely
powerful man. You point out in your book that in 1982 when Israel invaded
Lebanon, Pat Robertson rode into the fray in an Israeli jeep. In the war
that followed, 200,000 Lebanese and Palestinians were killed and wounded.
Robertson said that Israel was "doing God's will." He actually believed
that?
Oh yes, this cult of Israel is so real to some people. It's rather
frightening. What interests me is that some of these Christian churches are
now sponsoring the appearance in their churches of Solomon Gershon whose
mission in life is to replace the Muslim mosque there in Jerusalem that is
holy to a billion Muslims around the world. He wants to rebuild Solomon's
temple at that spot and he's worked very hard to breed up a red calf. Yes,
he wants to sacrifice a red calf there. But, of course, the mosque has to be
destroyed and that could trigger a war very easily. However, they don't
worry about that. And Christians are raising money to promote this. This is
very real and Christians are raising money for an impending act of
terrorism. Already there have been over 100 assaults on that mosque.
By far the most powerful lobby in America is the pro-Israel lobby and
now we have Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and all of their followers and
they all believe that Israel can do no wrong. It is a powerful alliance
between these militant Israelis and these militant Christians. No wonder
that Israel gets all of this foreign and military aid from the United States
and has for decades. And the Israelis, in addition, have been selling
high-tech weaponry to the Red Chinese and only The SPOTLIGHT was
reporting it. This all ties in to what you are talking about regarding this
alliance between the militant Israelis and the militant Christians.
Neither one would be so strong without the other.
You can't call it an Israeli philosophy, though. It's actually a really
weird twist on Christianity, that is only 200 years old and has no
connection with the Bible or anything in Christianity's history. How in the
world could Darby, the English originator of this theory convince anybody of
this? Actually, the ones who got convinced were the Americans. It was not a
big movement in England. But now these militant Christian evangelists such
as Falwell and Robertson are beaming this theory around the world with their
satellites.
You point out in your book that in March 1985, Jerry Falwell, speaking to an
assembly of rabbis in Miami, pledged to "mobilize 70 million conservative
Christians for Israel." Falwell also took credit for converting Sen. Jesse
Helms (R-N.C.) into one of Israel's staunchest allies and then Helms soon
was permitted to become chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Commit tee.
So is it Christianity or is it politics in Christian clothing?
I did document the fact, that Israel had given Jerry Falwell a jet
airplane, which is a nice gift. He uses it to go around and he uses that
jet, politically, I would say. I personally heard Jerry Falwell thank
Israeli leader Moshe Arens when I was traveling with Falwell. He didn't know
I was writing a book, but I traveled with two of his delegations that went
to Israel.

http://www.spotlight.org/02_02_00/Valentine/valentine.html

Published in THE SPOTLIGHT national newspaper
Pastor Frank
2003-07-29 00:49:42 UTC
Permalink
Yes, I am a member of the UMC and most Methodists are really good
people.
Methodists have an 'official' church doctrine but often times its
members
individually hold different doctrinal beliefs - some liberal and some
very
conservative. But the UMC teaches tolerance and asks its members to
reach
out
for 'dialog' with those of other faiths and today it encourages
especially
a dialog with those of Islamic faith. I kinda like their policy of
wanting
members to get to know and understand others in other faiths and come to
an understanding that we are all Gods Children. Within the UMC
hierarchy,
you
don't hear condemnation of Mohammad or Islam like Jerry Fallwell and
many
fundamentalist Baptist espouse.
Thank God. When I saw Pat Robertson praying for the "retirement" of three
Supreme Court Justices on the news, I almost lost it.
But no, the Methodists were lovely people. I was impressed by the
erudition
and variety of views I encountered during a Bible study with them. Glad
to
hear you're not a scary Christian (in which category I will unreservedly
lump Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. And possibly Franklin Graham. Not
sure about him yet.)
Both Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are dispensationalists. There is a
major problem with
being a Christian and being dispensationalist as well. Most Jews are
dispensationalists, and many Christians are trying to be both.
A Christian who believes in Christ and His Golden Rule, cannot be a
dispensationalist at the same time. The below will illustrate the issue.
--
Pastor Frank

THE GOLDEN RULE
Jesus in Mk 12:30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength:
this is the first commandment.
31: And the second is alike, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

"DISPENSATIONALISM IMPACTING U.S. FOREIGN POLICY"

By Tom Valentine
Published in THE SPOTLIGHT national newspaper

During the 19th century, long after the birth of Christ, a former
con-man came up with his own twist on the teachings of the Bible that is
taught by some people virtually as "scripture." It is having a major impact
on the world today, particularly U.S. policy in the Mideast.
This peculiar philosophy, known as "dispensationalism" is political, and
most emphatically not biblical. Yet many Christians in America consider it
"gospel." It states, that since YHWH gave Palestine to the Jews, whatever
the Jews do to the Palestinian natives to take the land, then and now, is
"God's will" and must be supported.
A courageous author who has investigated this bizarre phenomenon was
the guest on the Jan. 15 broadcast of The SPOTLIGHT's weekly call-in talk
forum, Radio Free America, with host Tom Valentine.
The guest, Grace Halsell, a veteran international journalist, author of 10
books and a professing, Bible-believing Christian, described her findings
regarding this influential politico-religious force in her new book, Forcing
God's Hand: Why Millions Pray for a Quick Rapture, which is available for
$12 from Liberty Library, 300 Independence Avenue, SE, Washington, D.C.
20003.
What follows is an edited transcript of the interview with Ms. Halsell.
Valentine's questions are in boldface. Ms. Halsell's responses are in
regular text.
How did you come about writing this book?
Let me go back to the very beginning. I've written a number of books and
lived around the world in many different countries. I was born in Texas and
I set out very early to see the world: Japan, South America etc. Actually, I
went to the Middle East after I had been almost every place else and I did a
book, Journey to Jerusalem. This was about 20 years ago. In that book, I
lived with the Christians and Muslims and Jews and told their story and how
they were living in Palestine and Israel.
One day I started living with the Jewish settlers who were taking land
illegally from the Palestinians and many of these Jews were Americans who
had moved over there from Brooklyn, N.Y. One of these was Bobby Brown, a
third generation American who had moved to the Middle East. Sitting in this
illegal colony outside Bethlehem, I heard Brown say, "You know God gave us
all this land and the Palestinians all have to leave."
That hit me very hard because I had to ask myself what I believed as a
Christian. Was God in the real estate business? Was he really giving land
and taking it away from the people who had been living there for about 2,000
years?
So that question in my mind stayed with me and then later I began to
take these tours with Jerry Falwell and meet Christians who condoned what
Bobby Brown was doing, which was taking guns and illegally confiscating land
from the owners who lived there. This led to this latest book, which is
called Forcing God's Hand: Why Millions Pray for a Quick Rapture.
I would assume that the Jews living there (and being Old Testament
people) would say, "Well, God dealt in real estate then. Why not now?"
That's correct. So these are the questions I raised and which I am raising
in this current book. I think, I definitely do answer the question in the
book. As a Christian, I think I believe in the message of Christ, which is
peace and brotherhood and love and not murder and not confiscation of land.
I very definitely come out and say that Christ's message is what we need to
accept if we want peace in the world.
You're originally from Texas. In your book you examine how the Southern
Baptist Convention has been manipulated by this theory.
There are 16 million Southern Baptist Convention members and the entire
leadership has been taken over by this group of what I call, these "militant
Christians" who support Israel, and whatever Israel does. You know, you can
criticize France or China or even the United States, but you're not supposed
to criticize Israel because the Southern Baptist convention leadership says
that everything Israel does is orchestrated by God.
That's a very unique perspective and many of the big television
evangelists promote this point of view. In your book you explain that the
Southern Baptists were actually taken over by these people who say that you
aren't supposed to criticize Israel in what was essentially a political
coup.
It really was. It started in the 1960s, led by two men, and it became
very political. It was a real coup. They took it over and turned it
political. It became such a big force that they are very active in politics
and they can actually be highly influential in politics, telling people whom
to vote for.
This idea that Israel can do no wrong and that everything Israel does is
directed by God, actually came to the American Christian churches out of
England through a theory called "dispensationalism."
Yes, this is quite a new belief theory, that didn't exist in
Christianity for
1,800 years. It came about just 200 years ago. It originated in England
with a man named Darby and it was made popular in this country by
Cyrus Scofield through his reference Bible. He wrote his theory within
his Bible, on the margin, so that it became like a reference book. But
some people reading that book take his words as almost the word of
God. He believed that everything important in all of history must center a
round Israel. Everything.
I became a Christian about 15 years ago after having explored a lot of
different philosophies. When I started looking into Christianity, I came
across this Scofield philosophy and it's quite influential. I found that the
Moody Bible Institute was promoting Scofieldism.
So many seminaries are owned or controlled by them. The seedbed for this
is the theological seminary in Dallas and they educate all of the professors
who go out and head up other seminaries. So it's a vast, growing movement
with all of the teachers and students who are learning this. There are
countless seminaries teaching this doctrine.
I rejected Scofieldism when I investigated it, and I see it as being
much more political than it is "Christian." It is highly political and it
gets so that it controls what goes on in the White House and controls what
goes on in Congress. It's a vast number of Christians who are influencing
Congress and the president. I give any number of examples in the book.
An article in The SPOTLIGHT written by Charles Fischbein, a former
high-ranking figure in the Israeli lobby in America, pointed out that even
former President Reagan and his attorney general, Edwin Meese, were praying
for Armageddon to come during the Reagan era. Yes, that is very true. Ronald
Reagan was tied very much into this belief system.
What exactly is it, that they be lieve?
Well, Reagan undoubtedly tied in with this idea, that there has to be an
Armageddon. The reason they support Israel so much is, that they say Israel
has to be the "landing base" for Christ. And while many of these people
don't like Jews as Jews, they do love Israel and make a cult of the land of
Israel and they want everything protected for Israel and what Israel wants,
they say Israel should get, since Israel has to be the "landing base" for
Christ.
I read the Bible for myself and I didn't see anywhere that Christ needed
a landing base. (Laughing.) It does get a little absurd, doesn't it? Well,
Christ is king in our hearts and whatever he wants will be done and I think
he's been crowned king for all Christians already.
It seems like these Scofieldian dispensationalists who say we must
support Israel are saying that, "Christ didn't do it right the first time,
so he's got to do it over."
Well, they want to force God's hand. God has to do it their way. It's pretty
egotistical on their part, it seems to me, instead of "Thy will be done." It
is like writing dogma your own way, and, as I said, it is a fairly recent
dogma and it has become kind of a cult.
I guess they get a lot of pleasure and satisfaction with the certitude
that they can say like Jerry Falwell: "I'm not worried about Armageddon. You
know why? I ain't gonna be here." It's like the idea that "me and my crowd
are sure to be raptured and sit in the sky in grandstand seats and watch the
destruction of earth below with all of the millions, billions, of other
people being destroyed."
In other words, the followers of this theory, that Scofield concocted
and which has now become influential in so-called "mainstream" Christian
thinking believe, that they are going to be looking down and watching the
people on earth murdering each other. It sounds to me like they are the
ancient Romans and the others are the ones in the lion's den. It doesn't
sound Christ-like to me at all, that Christ would enjoy watching people
burn. But as Jerry Falwell said, "I'm not worried . . . I ain't gonna be
here."
In the meantime, though, they have this very, very powerful alliance and
it gives them a lot of recognition and gives them a vast following. Tim
LaHaye sells millions of copies of his book about the rapture. Hal Lindsay's
book, The Late Great Planet Earth, was a major best-seller. I read Lindsay's
book right after I became a Christian and I couldn't find where he was
making these connections.
This is a danger to America, because so many millions of people readily
buy into this theory that's being taught by LaHaye and Falwell and Pat
Robertson. It's no wonder that the Muslims are upset when they hear Falwell
and Robertson talking the way they do. Pat Robertson is an extremely
powerful man. You point out in your book that in 1982 when Israel invaded
Lebanon, Pat Robertson rode into the fray in an Israeli jeep. In the war
that followed, 200,000 Lebanese and Palestinians were killed and wounded.
Robertson said that Israel was "doing God's will." He actually believed
that?
Oh yes, this cult of Israel is so real to some people. It's rather
frightening. What interests me is that some of these Christian churches are
now sponsoring the appearance in their churches of Solomon Gershon whose
mission in life is to replace the Muslim mosque there in Jerusalem that is
holy to a billion Muslims around the world. He wants to rebuild Solomon's
temple at that spot and he's worked very hard to breed up a red calf. Yes,
he wants to sacrifice a red calf there. But, of course, the mosque has to be
destroyed and that could trigger a war very easily. However, they don't
worry about that. And Christians are raising money to promote this. This is
very real and Christians are raising money for an impending act of
terrorism. Already there have been over 100 assaults on that mosque.
By far the most powerful lobby in America is the pro-Israel lobby and
now we have Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and all of their followers and
they all believe that Israel can do no wrong. It is a powerful alliance
between these militant Israelis and these militant Christians. No wonder
that Israel gets all of this foreign and military aid from the United States
and has for decades. And the Israelis, in addition, have been selling
high-tech weaponry to the Red Chinese and only The SPOTLIGHT was
reporting it. This all ties in to what you are talking about regarding this
alliance between the militant Israelis and the militant Christians.
Neither one would be so strong without the other.
You can't call it an Israeli philosophy, though. It's actually a really
weird twist on Christianity, that is only 200 years old and has no
connection with the Bible or anything in Christianity's history. How in the
world could Darby, the English originator of this theory convince anybody of
this? Actually, the ones who got convinced were the Americans. It was not a
big movement in England. But now these militant Christian evangelists such
as Falwell and Robertson are beaming this theory around the world with their
satellites.
You point out in your book that in March 1985, Jerry Falwell, speaking to an
assembly of rabbis in Miami, pledged to "mobilize 70 million conservative
Christians for Israel." Falwell also took credit for converting Sen. Jesse
Helms (R-N.C.) into one of Israel's staunchest allies and then Helms soon
was permitted to become chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Commit tee.
So is it Christianity or is it politics in Christian clothing?
I did document the fact, that Israel had given Jerry Falwell a jet
airplane, which is a nice gift. He uses it to go around and he uses that
jet, politically, I would say. I personally heard Jerry Falwell thank
Israeli leader Moshe Arens when I was traveling with Falwell. He didn't know
I was writing a book, but I traveled with two of his delegations that went
to Israel.

http://www.spotlight.org/02_02_00/Valentine/valentine.html

Published in THE SPOTLIGHT national newspaper
Pastor Frank
2003-07-23 20:16:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Caiaphas
No, just a Jewish name I selected when I started posting and looking to
learn
Post by Caiaphas
about beliefs of Jews some time ago when I was posting questions in Jewish
newsgroups. I am not Jewish nor do I believe in Judaism. I am not
anti-Semitic
Post by Caiaphas
nor do I hate any other peoples. I am Methodist - a New Covenant
Christian. I
Post by Caiaphas
do not honor the 'Caiaphas' of Christs time.
Wait, wait. Let me get this straight. You thought that in order to pass as
a Jew in a contemporary Jewish group, the name Caiaphas would make you fit
right in?
I'm not sure whether to laugh or despair.
Why, Jessica? Was Caiaphas not held in high esteem by his
contemporaries, and even today? You realize, don't you, that no Christian
missions are permitted in Israel, which might speak ill of Caiaphas, the
High Priest.
--
Pastor Frank

Jesus in Lk:4:18: The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath
anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the
broken-hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of
sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised
Jessica L. Price
2003-07-23 21:06:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pastor Frank
Why, Jessica? Was Caiaphas not held in high esteem by his
contemporaries, and even today? You realize, don't you, that no Christian
missions are permitted in Israel, which might speak ill of Caiaphas, the
High Priest.
--
Pastor Frank
Hello Frank.

Please read to the end of this before replying, as I have noticed that
things tend to escalate quickly around here when people don't read posts in
their entirety, or take things out of context.

Are you aware of the political/religious situation at the time of Jesus?
Contemporary Judaism developed from Pharisaic teachings. The Pharisees and
the Sadducees were the most bitterly opposed groups in Judaism at the time
of Christ. Caiaphas is called the High Priest in Mat 26:3, Mat 26:57, Luk
3:2, Jhn 11:49, Jhn 18:13-14, and Jhn 18:24-28. Acts 4:6 calls Annas the
High Priest but includes Caiaphas as one of the "kindred of the High
Priest."

The Sadducees were representative of the Temple government, and as the High
Priest and the Temple administration in general had become largely the tool
of the Romans, historically it is almost certain that Caiaphas was a
Sadducee. The Pharisees, on the other hand, were the center of anti-Roman
resistence. Thus, one could not be simultaneously sympathetic to the goals
of both the Pharisees and the Sadducees. As contemporary rabbinic Judaism
developed from Pharisaic teaching, I would have to strongly disagree with
the idea that modern Jews are sympathetic to the character of Caiaphas.
Since these type of characters have long been used as an excuse for violent
anti-Jewish sentiment, Jews in general, I think, are anything *but*
sympathetic to the character.

As for things in the modern state of Israel, they are the only Jewish state
in the world. If you had a theocratic-type government (which they don't,
exactly, but it's the clearest comparison I can make as an comprable and
unequivocally Christian-controlled government, to the best of my knowledge,
does not exist) would you permit non-Christian missions?

That hardly translates to modern Jews being sympathetic to the likes of
Caiaphas.

Regards,

Jessica
Caiaphas
2003-07-24 01:11:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jessica L. Price
Post by Pastor Frank
Why, Jessica? Was Caiaphas not held in high esteem by his
contemporaries, and even today? You realize, don't you, that no Christian
missions are permitted in Israel, which might speak ill of Caiaphas, the
High Priest.
--
Pastor Frank
Hello Frank.
Please read to the end of this before replying, as I have noticed that
things tend to escalate quickly around here when people don't read posts in
their entirety, or take things out of context.
Are you aware of the political/religious situation at the time of Jesus?
Contemporary Judaism developed from Pharisaic teachings. The Pharisees and
the Sadducees were the most bitterly opposed groups in Judaism at the time
of Christ. Caiaphas is called the High Priest in Mat 26:3, Mat 26:57, Luk
3:2, Jhn 11:49, Jhn 18:13-14, and Jhn 18:24-28. Acts 4:6 calls Annas the
High Priest but includes Caiaphas as one of the "kindred of the High
Priest."
The Sadducees were representative of the Temple government, and as the High
Priest and the Temple administration in general had become largely the tool
of the Romans, historically it is almost certain that Caiaphas was a
Sadducee. The Pharisees, on the other hand, were the center of anti-Roman
resistence. Thus, one could not be simultaneously sympathetic to the goals
of both the Pharisees and the Sadducees. As contemporary rabbinic Judaism
developed from Pharisaic teaching, I would have to strongly disagree with
the idea that modern Jews are sympathetic to the character of Caiaphas.
Since these type of characters have long been used as an excuse for violent
anti-Jewish sentiment, Jews in general, I think, are anything *but*
sympathetic to the character.
As for things in the modern state of Israel, they are the only Jewish state
in the world. If you had a theocratic-type government (which they don't,
exactly, but it's the clearest comparison I can make as an comprable and
unequivocally Christian-controlled government, to the best of my knowledge,
does not exist) would you permit non-Christian missions?
That hardly translates to modern Jews being sympathetic to the likes of
Caiaphas.
Would you say that modern-day Jews are opposed to Christ? If you say yes, then
they are likely to be either influenced by Judaism the religion or Jewish
Culture.

I have read that there are laws that limit Christian activities. At least there
is a 'culture' of thought amongst many Israelis that is opposed to many
Christian ideologies.
Caiaphas
2003-07-24 11:31:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caiaphas
Would you say that modern-day Jews are opposed to Christ? If you say yes,
then
Post by Caiaphas
they are likely to be either influenced by Judaism the religion or Jewish
Culture.
I have read that there are laws that limit Christian activities. At least
there
Post by Caiaphas
is a 'culture' of thought amongst many Israelis that is opposed to many
Christian ideologies.
Certainly. If you were the government of the only Christian country in the
world (and a tiny country surrounded by people who wanted you gone, at that)
wouldn't you want to safeguard your Christianity? Even if it meant
forbidding other religions to proselytize there?
I understand that it is objectionable from a Christian point of view. I
understand that some proponents of the "marketplace of ideas" concept feel
it's wrong.
But my point is that for some people there, they honestly believe that
they're doing what they have to to survive as Jews. Whether or not one
agrees with Israel's actions, many still support the idea of a Jewish state.
Bear with me a moment while I attempt to explain why many Jews who would not
support the idea of religious restriction in a country such as the U.S.
(against *anyone,* Christians included) are willing to put up with it in
Israel.
Israel is the only place that *cannot* refuse to take Jews in. For hundreds
of years, Jews have concluded the Passover seder with the words, "Next year
in Jerusalem!" From all the lands of their dispersion, in generations among
whom no one in living memory had ever seen the Holy Land, Jews prayed for
the fertility of the land, that it would receive rain in the right times,
and that some day there would come a time when they would have enough
control of their own destiny to finally see it. These prayers still form a
part of the Jewish liturgy. In the folktales of other cultures,
protagonists wandered into magical lands of Faerie. In Jewish folklore,
they found their way from Germany or Russia or Yemen to Israel.
Israel exists in a region where there is no other democracy; it was built
primarily by people who themselves had no experience with democracy, having
come from totalitarian, tyrannical regimes in Eastern Europe and the Middle
East. Since its inception, it's been plunged into almost constant warfare.
It's a tiny nation, about the size of Rhode Island, surrounded for more than
40 years by hostile countries who together total an area far larger than the
United States.
Despite all of this, it is a thriving democracy. Many Jews view this as a
tribute to the spiritual and moral legacy of Judaism.
In addition, Israel is the spiritual center of the Jewish people. This tiny
little land is the only permanent home the Jewish people have managed to
find. It is home in the classic definition of Robert Frost: "Home is the
place where, when you have to go there, they have to take you in." Every
other country in the world can choose to accept or reject Jews in trouble.
The history of Jewish refugees seeking sanctuary has often been one of
frustration, denial and tragedy. Israel has always committed itself to
taking them in; Israel is home.
I remember reading a transcript of a BBC broadcast from the mid-80's (before
my time, I admit). The first Ethiopian Jews had just arrived. The
commentator's words struck me: "I have never been too sympathetic to the
policies or ideologies of Israel," he said. "But I must say this: no other
nation on the globe, or in history, would have sent its soldiers halfway
around the world to rescue people of another race and different culture
because they said, 'We are your brothers and sisters.'"
And there it is. It's not a perfect land -- far from it, because like all
people, those in Israel are far from perfect. But it has always stood at
the center of Jewish consciousness, and for many the return of the Jews to
Israel is the fulfillment of a vision passed down for generations, a longing
that has taken on almost mythical proportions.
So, while many Jews may disagree with the policies, the administration, or
the actions of Israel, most still fiercely support its existence as a Jewish
state. It's about a lot more than simple politics, and its emotional impact
is extraordinarily deeply rooted.
That said, *I* would never want to live there. Tel Aviv has got to be the
ugliest city on the Mediterranean, and you can only get a legally recognized
marriage if it's done by an Orthodox rabbi. Not to mention that one can't
go into a pizza parlor or take a bus without risking getting blown up. And
it completely sucks (obviously) if you're not Jewish.
Anyway, yes, there is a culture of thought there that is anti-Christian.
But from an Israeli standpoint, they're the bastion of Judaism, alone in a
world dominated by Islam and Christianity, both of which are hostile to
them, with the only other major center of Judaism in the world being the
U.S., and they view American Jewry as hopelessly assimilated. They believe
they're fighting to survive, which, in a sense they are. Most of the Arab
countries around them openly admit they want Israel gone. Just because
you're paranoid doesn't mean that people aren't trying to kill you.
So yes, most modern-day Jews, with the exception of the messianic movement,
are opposed to Christ. They believe he did not fulfill the prophecies and
is therefore not the Messiah. The most important characteristic in the
Jewish conception of the Messiah (other than his being simply human, not
divine) is that his coming will usher in an era of worldwide peace.
Obviously, if they weren't opposed to Christ -- for themselves -- they would
be Christian.
On the other hand, unlike Christians, who are opposed to *any* other
religion for *anyone,* Jews are not opposed to Christ for gentiles. If Jews
ruled the world (oh boy, could you make a sitcom out of *that* one!) the
only religious laws they would insist that everyone follow are the seven
Noahide laws, which are pretty broad. You want to believe in him, go ahead.
I understand that from your standpoint, you want Israel to be a Christian
country. But I hope that this helps you understand why most Jews are so
fiercely committed to keeping Israel a Jewish (both religiously and
culturally) country.
Warm regards,
Jessica
Jessica, your sane description of the perspective from the Jewish point of view
is enlightning. I understand that Jews want to maintain their Jewish culture
but as a Christian it really feels like those who follow Judaism are in conflict
with Christ and God. Like you mentioned, we should not harbor grudges and
mistreatment against anyone but try to bring them to our view of Gods Will.
Christians should love everyone, Jews and Arabs, but not condone or support
Judaism or Islam. This, I guess, is the message the UMC expresses when it wants
us to reach out and understand one another. With understanding and compassion
we should be able to communicate and live peacefully.
Jessica L. Price
2003-07-24 22:09:44 UTC
Permalink
"Caiaphas" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:ksPTa.466$***@eagle.america.net...

| Jessica, your sane description of the perspective from the Jewish point
of view
| is enlightning.

Thank you. I firmly believe that one can be both sane and passionate
simultaneously.

I attempted to answer another post of yours, but my newsserver told me
that the thread had gotten to long. So I began another thread with my
answer, under the title "Hey Caiaphas!" But then I realized that I had
only posted it to alt.bible, and this thread is crossposted, so you may be
posting from another newsgroup entirely. So, are you at alt.bible? If
not, which one? (I don't want to crosspost it to all of them because
everyone tells me crossposting is rude.)

Warm regards,

Jessica
Pastor Frank
2003-07-29 01:19:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caiaphas
Post by Caiaphas
Would you say that modern-day Jews are opposed to Christ? If you say yes,
then
Post by Caiaphas
they are likely to be either influenced by Judaism the religion or Jewish
Culture.
I have read that there are laws that limit Christian activities. At least
there
Post by Caiaphas
is a 'culture' of thought amongst many Israelis that is opposed to many
Christian ideologies.
Certainly. If you were the government of the only Christian country in the
world (and a tiny country surrounded by people who wanted you gone, at that)
wouldn't you want to safeguard your Christianity? Even if it meant
forbidding other religions to proselytize there?
I understand that it is objectionable from a Christian point of view. I
understand that some proponents of the "marketplace of ideas" concept feel
it's wrong.
But my point is that for some people there, they honestly believe that
they're doing what they have to to survive as Jews. Whether or not one
agrees with Israel's actions, many still support the idea of a Jewish state.
Bear with me a moment while I attempt to explain why many Jews who would not
support the idea of religious restriction in a country such as the U.S.
(against *anyone,* Christians included) are willing to put up with it in
Israel.
Israel is the only place that *cannot* refuse to take Jews in. For hundreds
of years, Jews have concluded the Passover seder with the words, "Next year
in Jerusalem!" From all the lands of their dispersion, in generations among
whom no one in living memory had ever seen the Holy Land, Jews prayed for
the fertility of the land, that it would receive rain in the right times,
and that some day there would come a time when they would have enough
control of their own destiny to finally see it. These prayers still form a
part of the Jewish liturgy. In the folktales of other cultures,
protagonists wandered into magical lands of Faerie. In Jewish folklore,
they found their way from Germany or Russia or Yemen to Israel.
Israel exists in a region where there is no other democracy; it was built
primarily by people who themselves had no experience with democracy, having
come from totalitarian, tyrannical regimes in Eastern Europe and the Middle
East. Since its inception, it's been plunged into almost constant warfare.
It's a tiny nation, about the size of Rhode Island, surrounded for more than
40 years by hostile countries who together total an area far larger than the
United States.
Despite all of this, it is a thriving democracy. Many Jews view this as a
tribute to the spiritual and moral legacy of Judaism.
In addition, Israel is the spiritual center of the Jewish people. This tiny
little land is the only permanent home the Jewish people have managed to
find. It is home in the classic definition of Robert Frost: "Home is the
place where, when you have to go there, they have to take you in."
Every
Post by Caiaphas
other country in the world can choose to accept or reject Jews in trouble.
The history of Jewish refugees seeking sanctuary has often been one of
frustration, denial and tragedy. Israel has always committed itself to
taking them in; Israel is home.
I remember reading a transcript of a BBC broadcast from the mid-80's (before
my time, I admit). The first Ethiopian Jews had just arrived. The
commentator's words struck me: "I have never been too sympathetic to the
policies or ideologies of Israel," he said. "But I must say this: no other
nation on the globe, or in history, would have sent its soldiers halfway
around the world to rescue people of another race and different culture
because they said, 'We are your brothers and sisters.'"
And there it is. It's not a perfect land -- far from it, because like all
people, those in Israel are far from perfect. But it has always stood at
the center of Jewish consciousness, and for many the return of the Jews to
Israel is the fulfillment of a vision passed down for generations, a longing
that has taken on almost mythical proportions.
So, while many Jews may disagree with the policies, the administration, or
the actions of Israel, most still fiercely support its existence as a Jewish
state. It's about a lot more than simple politics, and its emotional impact
is extraordinarily deeply rooted.
That said, *I* would never want to live there. Tel Aviv has got to be the
ugliest city on the Mediterranean, and you can only get a legally recognized
marriage if it's done by an Orthodox rabbi. Not to mention that one can't
go into a pizza parlor or take a bus without risking getting blown up.
And
Post by Caiaphas
it completely sucks (obviously) if you're not Jewish.
Anyway, yes, there is a culture of thought there that is anti-Christian.
But from an Israeli standpoint, they're the bastion of Judaism, alone in a
world dominated by Islam and Christianity, both of which are hostile to
them, with the only other major center of Judaism in the world being the
U.S., and they view American Jewry as hopelessly assimilated. They believe
they're fighting to survive, which, in a sense they are. Most of the Arab
countries around them openly admit they want Israel gone. Just because
you're paranoid doesn't mean that people aren't trying to kill you.
So yes, most modern-day Jews, with the exception of the messianic movement,
are opposed to Christ. They believe he did not fulfill the prophecies and
is therefore not the Messiah. The most important characteristic in the
Jewish conception of the Messiah (other than his being simply human, not
divine) is that his coming will usher in an era of worldwide peace.
Obviously, if they weren't opposed to Christ -- for themselves -- they would
be Christian.
On the other hand, unlike Christians, who are opposed to *any* other
religion for *anyone,* Jews are not opposed to Christ for gentiles. If Jews
ruled the world (oh boy, could you make a sitcom out of *that* one!) the
only religious laws they would insist that everyone follow are the seven
Noahide laws, which are pretty broad. You want to believe in him, go ahead.
I understand that from your standpoint, you want Israel to be a Christian
country. But I hope that this helps you understand why most Jews are so
fiercely committed to keeping Israel a Jewish (both religiously and
culturally) country.
Warm regards,
Jessica
Jessica, your sane description of the perspective from the Jewish point of view
is enlightning. I understand that Jews want to maintain their Jewish culture
but as a Christian it really feels like those who follow Judaism are in conflict
with Christ and God. Like you mentioned, we should not harbor grudges and
mistreatment against anyone but try to bring them to our view of Gods Will.
Christians should love everyone, Jews and Arabs, but not condone or support
Judaism or Islam. This, I guess, is the message the UMC expresses when it wants
us to reach out and understand one another. With understanding and compassion
we should be able to communicate and live peacefully.
I remember my Jewish aunt who returned alive from Buchenwald
Konzentrationslager, and Her absolute horror, when as a feckless youth, I
sought to analyze the reasons why Germany turned on the Jews. I learned then
from her, that to be a Mensch, there IS NO justification EVER to be inhumane
to another human being. No matter what the Germans OR the Jews then and/or
now aspire to, you just don't found a successful nation on top of mass
graves, or through inhumane treatment of others, no matter who they are. And
that is merely the Humanistic position. Just think how much more emphatic
are Christ's commandments concerning the quality of relationships we are to
have with our God and our fellow man.
--
Pastor Frank

THE GOLDEN RULE
Jesus in Mk 12:30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength:
this is the first commandment.
31: And the second is alike, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Pastor Frank
2003-07-24 12:05:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Caiaphas
Would you say that modern-day Jews are opposed to Christ? If you say yes, then
they are likely to be either influenced by Judaism the religion or Jewish
Culture.
I have read that there are laws that limit Christian activities. At least there
is a 'culture' of thought amongst many Israelis that is opposed to many
Christian ideologies.
Yes. Christian missions are not permitted into Israel, and any Christian
missionary activity will result into immediate expulsion.
So much for your laws that "limit" Christian activities. Because of the
lack of Christ in their lives, it looks like nearly the whole nation of
Israel will land in hell, for they ascribe the second most important
commandment of Christ to a Rabbi Hillel, one which can be safely ignored in
dealing with their native populations, during OT times as well as now. See
below
--
Pastor Frank

THE GOLDEN RULE
Jesus in Mk 12:30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength:
this is the first commandment.
31: And the second is alike, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
John Vogel
2003-07-18 15:29:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Pastor Frank
Atheists tend to talk our most holy and perfect God to be a
"Sky-daddy"
Post by Pastor Frank
or "sky-pixy" etc. etc. as if the word God was in any way comparable
to
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Pastor Frank
such fantasy objects, devoid of any qualities whatever..
So then you propose we stop seeing God as an entity altogether, let's
just
Post by Pastor Frank
start calling God an it, then, shall we? Let's call the Holy spirit "it"
as
Post by Pastor Frank
well, after all, an ideal certainly can't have any sort of personal
qualities, such as gender... so it would be quite right, no? I'm sorry,
but
Post by Pastor Frank
I simply don't believe God is simply an ideal, oh I believe he is an
ideal,
Post by Pastor Frank
but that he is not just an ideal, and I certainly don't think Jesus ever
meant to imply that is all God is.
Your forget, that Christ is the ONLY begotten Son of God. That means,
that there is no other physical rendition of God but Christ. Otherwise God
is "a Spirit" (John 4:24) within Christ where He does the work,(John
14:10)
as well as in all those who love Him.
Okay, maybe I see the problem here. God is a Spiritual entity. Do you think
that the word "entity" means "physical"? Is that were the miscommunication
comes from?
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Pastor Frank
That is why I always give plenty of Biblical references, and I am
ready
Post by Pastor Frank
to supply more if asked. However I cannot debate people's beliefs sans
scriptural references, relying on logic or my personal perception of the
Holy Spirit alone, nor can I debate anyone who discounts Biblical
reference.
This is more then obvious Frank, but I wouldn't be too proud of it,
personally.
I disagree. For without reference your Christ is a mere figment of
your
own personal and private imagination.
See my last post on this.




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Pastor Frank
2003-07-20 23:25:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Pastor Frank
Atheists tend to talk our most holy and perfect God to be a
"Sky-daddy"
Post by Pastor Frank
or "sky-pixy" etc. etc. as if the word God was in any way comparable
to
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Pastor Frank
such fantasy objects, devoid of any qualities whatever..
So then you propose we stop seeing God as an entity altogether, let's
just start calling God an it, then, shall we? Let's call the Holy
spirit
Post by Pastor Frank
"it"
as
Post by Pastor Frank
well, after all, an ideal certainly can't have any sort of personal
qualities, such as gender... so it would be quite right, no? I'm sorry,
but
Post by Pastor Frank
I simply don't believe God is simply an ideal, oh I believe he is an
ideal,
Post by Pastor Frank
but that he is not just an ideal, and I certainly don't think Jesus
ever
Post by Pastor Frank
meant to imply that is all God is.
Your forget, that Christ is the ONLY begotten Son of God. That
means,
that there is no other physical rendition of God but Christ. Otherwise
God
is "a Spirit" (John 4:24) within Christ where He does the work,(John
14:10) as well as in all those who love Him.
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Pastor Frank
That is why I always give plenty of Biblical references, and I am
ready
Post by Pastor Frank
to supply more if asked. However I cannot debate people's beliefs sans
scriptural references, relying on logic or my personal perception of
the Holy Spirit alone, nor can I debate anyone who discounts Biblical
reference.
This is more then obvious Frank, but I wouldn't be too proud of it,
personally.
I disagree. For without reference your Christ is a mere figment of
your
own personal and private imagination.
So without the bible, God does not exist? God needs references to exist?
Our God DOES indeed make Himself known through the Christ of the NT.
Without that you would not know our Christian God. Are you telling us,
Christ revealed Himself to you through His Holy Spirit, without you having
any knowledge of the NT, nor needing to reference your revelation to the NT?
--
Pastor Frank

2Tm:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable
for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Contad Diction
2003-07-21 09:48:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Pastor Frank
Atheists tend to talk our most holy and perfect God to be a
"Sky-daddy"
Post by Pastor Frank
or "sky-pixy" etc. etc. as if the word God was in any way comparable
to
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Pastor Frank
such fantasy objects, devoid of any qualities whatever..
So then you propose we stop seeing God as an entity altogether, let's
just start calling God an it, then, shall we? Let's call the Holy
spirit
Post by Pastor Frank
"it"
as
Post by Pastor Frank
well, after all, an ideal certainly can't have any sort of personal
qualities, such as gender... so it would be quite right, no? I'm sorry,
but
Post by Pastor Frank
I simply don't believe God is simply an ideal, oh I believe he is an
ideal,
Post by Pastor Frank
but that he is not just an ideal, and I certainly don't think Jesus
ever
Post by Pastor Frank
meant to imply that is all God is.
Your forget, that Christ is the ONLY begotten Son of God. That
means,
that there is no other physical rendition of God but Christ. Otherwise
God
is "a Spirit" (John 4:24) within Christ where He does the work,(John
14:10) as well as in all those who love Him.
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Pastor Frank
That is why I always give plenty of Biblical references, and I am
ready
Post by Pastor Frank
to supply more if asked. However I cannot debate people's beliefs
sans
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Pastor Frank
scriptural references, relying on logic or my personal perception of
the Holy Spirit alone, nor can I debate anyone who discounts Biblical
reference.
This is more then obvious Frank, but I wouldn't be too proud of it,
personally.
I disagree. For without reference your Christ is a mere figment of
your
own personal and private imagination.
So without the bible, God does not exist? God needs references to exist?
Our God DOES indeed make Himself known through the Christ of the NT.
Without that you would not know our Christian God. Are you telling us,
Christ revealed Himself to you through His Holy Spirit, without you
having any knowledge of the NT, nor needing to reference your revelation
to the NT?
Your christ has not revealed himself to me at all, but I would have thought
that such a supreme being would not need a book to exist. Why on earth do
you worship a 'non-entity' that only exists in your imagination which has
been spawned from the bible (not my definition but yours)?

Regards

--
Pastor Frank
2003-07-21 13:11:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Contad Diction
Post by Pastor Frank
Our God DOES indeed make Himself known through the Christ of the NT.
Without that you would not know our Christian God. Are you telling us,
Christ revealed Himself to you through His Holy Spirit, without you
having any knowledge of the NT, nor needing to reference your revelation
to the NT?
Your christ has not revealed himself to me at all, but I would have thought
that such a supreme being would not need a book to exist. Why on earth do
you worship a 'non-entity' that only exists in your imagination which has
been spawned from the bible (not my definition but yours)?
There you go again with your standard atheist claptrap. Our "God is
love" and makes himself known to just about everyone every day.
Ask Jesus to become real in your life, and then live in faith of Him.
--
Pastor Frank

"Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?" [Galatians
4:16]
Pastor Frank
2003-07-22 06:15:15 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the good word. Perhaps you can answer something I have found
confusing. I have been of the opinion that Christianity believes in a
God
which is an actual entity, though from my chats with Frank I get the
impression that he believes that the Christian god is simply the 'ideals
of Christianity'. In order to avoid misinterpretation, I have tried to
pin
him
down on this, and he has stated 'And no, there is no independent entity
named god'.
Now I am left with the possibilities that either I am misunderstanding
Frank
again, I originally misunderstood the Christian beliefs, or Frank has a
unique take on the Christian beliefs. There is the other possibility,
that
Frank is purposefully trying to muddle the issue with ambiguous and
obscure
definitions, but I hope not.
(BTW, the thread I am taking the quote from is 'Re: Faith and Knowledge,
Rev. 3.0, Pastor Frank, 2003/07/12, 1:57 pm)
I personally think that sometimes Frank says things which are kind of
difficult to understand. I know sometimes I have the same problem, my
thoughts tell me one thing, but when I try to define what I am saying in
words, they really don't equate to what I am thinking... maybe this is the
case here, with Frank. Maybe Frank knows exactly what he means, and is
right
in what he says, but we don't know what he means, so we might presume that
he is wrong in what he says, based on our not understanding the "thought
processes" that go with what he is saying...
Don't you believe the NT? I document what I say assiduously, and so
should you. Here it is again, and DO let me know what is "kind of difficult
understand" about this.
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) and Christ is the Word of
God become flesh (John 1:1-14). Therefore our almighty God can be word
and/or flesh.
--
Pastor Frank

GOD
Jesus in Jn:4:24: God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship
him in spirit and in truth.
Jesus in John 14:7: If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also:
and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8: Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9: Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast
thou not known me, Philip? He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and
how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10: Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the
words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that
dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jn:4:16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God
is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Acts:17:28: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain
also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
John Vogel
2003-07-22 15:40:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pastor Frank
Thanks for the good word. Perhaps you can answer something I have found
confusing. I have been of the opinion that Christianity believes in a
God
which is an actual entity, though from my chats with Frank I get the
impression that he believes that the Christian god is simply the 'ideals
of Christianity'. In order to avoid misinterpretation, I have tried to
pin
him
down on this, and he has stated 'And no, there is no independent entity
named god'.
Now I am left with the possibilities that either I am misunderstanding
Frank
again, I originally misunderstood the Christian beliefs, or Frank has a
unique take on the Christian beliefs. There is the other possibility,
that
Frank is purposefully trying to muddle the issue with ambiguous and
obscure
definitions, but I hope not.
(BTW, the thread I am taking the quote from is 'Re: Faith and Knowledge,
Rev. 3.0, Pastor Frank, 2003/07/12, 1:57 pm)
I personally think that sometimes Frank says things which are kind of
difficult to understand. I know sometimes I have the same problem, my
thoughts tell me one thing, but when I try to define what I am saying in
words, they really don't equate to what I am thinking... maybe this is the
case here, with Frank. Maybe Frank knows exactly what he means, and is
right
in what he says, but we don't know what he means, so we might presume that
he is wrong in what he says, based on our not understanding the "thought
processes" that go with what he is saying...
Don't you believe the NT? I document what I say assiduously, and so
should you. Here it is again, and DO let me know what is "kind of difficult
understand" about this.
What is your problem Frank? Do you think I was speaking against you? Did you
read the part where I said "I know sometimes I have the same problem" trying
to make myself understood? Perhaps YOU misunderstood me? Do you NOT realize
that I was saying, while I don't agree with the premise (that God is nothing
more then an ideal, that God is not an entity), I am not disagreeing with
you (or with the scripture for that matter) but saying it very well COULD BE
my own understanding (and/or his understanding) that is in error.

If you think simply posting a few verses from the bible is going to make you
more understood, then I think you need to understand that not everyone is
given the same level or even the same KIND of understanding as you, that
sometimes one person might perceive the words of the bible in a completely
different light then another. What you are saying, is most likely GIVEN to
you
to understand by His Holy Spirit. What you post is not the Word of God, but
YOUR understanding of the Word. And YOUR understanding of the Word
may not be the same understanding as MINE or as someone elses. As well, it
very well could be the same understanding, but you might EXPLAIN this in a
different way then I would, as you most definitly do. The confusion comes
from your taking one attribute from the scripture "God is love", one small
statement and pretty much building your whole theological premise around
this verse. When questioned further, you do not feel any need to clarify
yourself, you simply ignore the requests for clarification.

Do you think John just wrote "God is love" and left it at that? Do you think
John figured, well... they'll know what I mean by my ambiguous reference, I
don't really have to clarify what I mean? No, if you read 1 John chapter
four, we can see exactly what John was saying, when he says "God is love"...
we can understand the context of those words...
Post by Pastor Frank
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) and Christ is the Word of
God become flesh (John 1:1-14). Therefore our almighty God can be word
and/or flesh.
--
Pastor Frank
Okay, you want me to tell you what is "kind of difficult to understand"
about what you said above? Very well.

You use 1 John 4:8 to make your case that "God is love". And you rest your
understanding on these verses (1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16) that God is love.
In your posts, I see you say this over and over again, that this is WHAT GOD
IS... as if that really covered God. As if this is the ONLY attribute of God
that matters or indeed exists in the bible. However, this is NOT the only
"attribute" used, not even the only attribute used in 1 John... in 1 John
1:5 we see "God is light", in 1 John 1:6 we read "God is the Truth". Why
don't you use these descriptions as well? God is Love. God is Light. God is
Truth. Why lean on ONE simple description of God? Especially one that is
obviously distorted and misunderstood by most men? What is "love"? How is
this God? If we are "in love" are we "in God"? If I love eating donuts, is
that of God? If a "God-hater" loves his children, does he then know God, as
the scripture plainly says "everyone that loves is born of God and knows
God" (1 John 4:7)... but you see, this is not so... there are many atheists
who will confess to know "love", that will confess that they "love" this or
that, some people love money, others love posessions, others love to have
sex or they love fame and fortune. Is this all of God?

I'll write more later, I have to get going. Perhaps we can have a REAL
discussion on these issues to clear up MY misunderstanding and the
misunderstanding of so many who are without God who have found no comfort or
light in the simple phrase "God is love". Furthermore, I would very much
like to go over, with you, John 1:1-14, if you are up to a bit of study.

I will try to write more this afternoon, if I have the time.




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Pastor Frank
2003-07-23 13:38:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Vogel
Okay, you want me to tell you what is "kind of difficult to understand"
about what you said above? Very well.
You use 1 John 4:8 to make your case that "God is love". And you rest your
understanding on these verses (1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16) that God is love.
In your posts, I see you say this over and over again, that this is WHAT GOD
IS... as if that really covered God. As if this is the ONLY attribute of God
that matters or indeed exists in the bible. However, this is NOT the only
"attribute" used, not even the only attribute used in 1 John... in 1 John
1:5 we see "God is light", in 1 John 1:6 we read "God is the Truth". Why
don't you use these descriptions as well? God is Love. God is Light. God is
Truth. Why lean on ONE simple description of God?
Often enough I say: Among many other such attributes or qualities, "God
is love". When discussing Christ I may omit this caveat, for Christ is the
embodyment of love, He defines and demonstrates the concept by His life and
death for us.
I think you are about to lump me into your generic classification of
minister who "sell snake-oil" in reprobate churches. I don't think I want to
continue this conversation, John, lest we give atheists, agnostics and other
assorted God-haters reason to rejoice.
--
Pastor Frank

LOVE
Jesus in Jn:13:34: A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one
another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Jesus in Jn:13:35: By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if
ye have love one to another.
Jesus in Jn:15:12: This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I
have loved you.
Jesus in Jn:15:13: Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down
his life for his friends.
John 14:15 "If you love me, you will obey what I command... 21 Whoever
has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who
loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show
myself to him."
23 "...If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will
love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He
who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear
are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me."
Pastor Frank
2003-07-24 12:38:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by John Vogel
Okay, you want me to tell you what is "kind of difficult to understand"
about what you said above? Very well.
You use 1 John 4:8 to make your case that "God is love". And you rest
your
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by John Vogel
understanding on these verses (1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16) that God is
love.
Post by John Vogel
In your posts, I see you say this over and over again, that this is
WHAT
Post by Pastor Frank
GOD
Post by John Vogel
IS... as if that really covered God. As if this is the ONLY attribute
of
Post by Pastor Frank
God
Post by John Vogel
that matters or indeed exists in the bible. However, this is NOT the
only
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by John Vogel
"attribute" used, not even the only attribute used in 1 John... in 1
John
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by John Vogel
1:5 we see "God is light", in 1 John 1:6 we read "God is the Truth". Why
don't you use these descriptions as well? God is Love. God is Light.
God
Post by Pastor Frank
is
Post by John Vogel
Truth. Why lean on ONE simple description of God?
Often enough I say: Among many other such attributes or qualities,
"God
Post by Pastor Frank
is love". When discussing Christ I may omit this caveat, for Christ is the
embodyment of love, He defines and demonstrates the concept by His life
and death for us.
You are quite right, I recall you saying that more then once, and I have
even gone out of the way to draw others attention to your saying "among
other attributes"... My reply, however, was in reference to your asking
"what is difficult to understand", and this is one of the biggest
misunderstandings, I think. Like I said, John never said "God is love" and
rested his "argument" on this, but very specifically taught the nature of
this love, how it applies to us and how it applies to God. I, personally,
know the scripture fairly well, and I, personally have not completly
understood some of the things you have said. When I told Contad Diction
that sometimes what you say is hard to understand, you took this as some
sort of complaint or critisism of you, even though I said I have this same
problem sometimes, that is having people understand "where I'm coming
from".
You seem to think by referring to a snippet of scripture this should clear
everything up, but obviously it doesn't always do the trick to just give
some snippet of scripture. Now, if the "reprobates" would stop and check
the
scripture, not only the verse you quoted, but the context, there is a
chance
they might understand you, but there is still a greater chance that they
won't understand either you OR the scripture you refer them to.
Post by Pastor Frank
I think you are about to lump me into your generic classification of
minister who "sell snake-oil" in reprobate churches. I don't think I
want
Post by Pastor Frank
to continue this conversation, John, lest we give atheists, agnostics
and other assorted God-haters reason to rejoice.
Frank, believe me, since I have been posting to and about you, while I
might
see some things you really need to work on (my opinion, mind you) and
while
I might see you interpreting scripture erroneously (IMHO), I have not,
and
will not lump you into any "generic classification", as I have said
repeatedly to and about you, I consider you a brother in Christ, and do
not
believe you are "selling snake-oil". I do believe you are under the
influence of worldly teachings which have clouded your understanding of
The
Word of God. If you find that personally insulting, I only hope you
understand or believe that I certainly don't mean it as an insult or a
jibe
or an attack of any kind.
I believe we are ALL under this influence to some degree.
Some of these teachings are things that you cannot find in the scripture,
such as your belief that the scripture IS the Word of God, and that it is
innerent. These are teachings based on loose interpretations which when
examined say nothing of the sort... I find these teachings very seriously
impede my showing others the Truth in Jesus Christ, in His Word... I have
studiously examined EVERY instance of the phrase "Word of God" and "Gods
Word" and I can testify that not one verse in the OT or in the NT comes
close to saying that the scripture (or the bible) IS the Word of God...
yet,
this is what I am supposed to teach, as I have been taught, not by the
scripture, not by the Holy Spirit, but of man? I don't think so. I
seriously
don't mean to offend anyone, and I don't mean to argue with you, I agree
if
I had not had the scripture I would never have known of Jesus Christ,
would
never have come to seek God or to know His will in me.
The problem, I believe, is that so many make the bible more then it
actually
is, and dimish the actual power or presence of God, himself. They more or
less make a God out of the bible. When the "God-haters" seek to destroy
the
bible, the so-called innerrancy, they find it is fairly easy to do, and if
someone rests their whole foundation on this book, their foundation will
crumble. The bible, is an awesome tool, but is totally useless without His
Holy Spirit to guide us. The bible is full of wise words, but we cannot
understand this, we cannot gain wisdom from these words, if we are not
given
that Wisdom... the "Light" which seperates the carnal (the words
themselves,
our carnal understanding of the words, our knowledge, our stupidity) from
the spiritual (the Word itself which is the light that shines and guides
our
paths and gives us Truth and Faith and Hope, this is The Holy Spirit).
I apologize if my recent posts have offended you, Pastor Frank, or if you
feel they are an offence to Jesus Christ. I can certainly understand your
perspective on this, and appreciate your advice, but at the same time, I
really must say what I am led to say, as He leads me to say. Your main
"gripe" (if you'll pardon the expression) is that I am apparantly
attacking
"all that is sacred" to the great amusement of the "God-haters".
As I said before, let them cheer, while I tear down this false image of
Christ and replace it with the Word of God. Perhaps these so-called
"God-haters" will see the Truth, beyond mans understanding, well beyond
religion, beyond the so-called "innerant word of God" (the bible, that
is),
and realize the perfection in The Word of God. And I don't think the Lord
would mind it one bit if a few fundamentalist, who's roots are buried in
mans interpretation of God, start realizing the apostasy in this religion
that has turned so many away from God, and start teaching from the
perspective of Jesus Christ.
On the one hand you say your only trustworthy reference is the Holy
Spirit, and you know the difference between the Holy Spirit and its unholy
counterfeit without Biblical reference. Yet on the other hand the authors of
the Bible who wrote under the guidance of the Holy Spirit are erroneous,
ministers are erroneous Churches are erroneous, I am erroneous.
You will excuse me if I subscribe to those erroneous, and doubt what you
call the Holy Spirit. Like I said, I rest my case here and you won't hear
from me, unless you attack again holy scripture, ministers and churches etc.
without METICULOUS evidence of their wrongdoing.
--
Pastor Frank

2Tm:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable
for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Jesus in Jn:5:39: Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have
eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
John Vogel
2003-07-25 21:52:02 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
Post by Pastor Frank
On the one hand you say your only trustworthy reference is the Holy
Spirit, and you know the difference between the Holy Spirit and its unholy
counterfeit without Biblical reference. Yet on the other hand the authors of
the Bible who wrote under the guidance of the Holy Spirit are erroneous,
ministers are erroneous Churches are erroneous, I am erroneous.
We are all erroneous. The Holy Spirit is NOT erroneous. The Holy Spirit can
make the scripture clear to us, and through this we can find salvation, not
of our own understanding, not of our own works, but of God, through faith in
Him. If we find Truth in the scripture, then we can thank God, and glorify
His Name, because HE has given us that truth, beyond our own understanding,
beyond our own means to understand, God has revealed something awesome to
us, through the prophets, through the apostles... through the scriptures, he
reveals this TO us, through the Bible. We, however, are often erroneous,
when we do not trust in God, that he will guide us, and we tend to lean on
our own understanding. Just as Moses did, Just as Abraham did, Just as all
of the prophets and all of the apostles did, we all tend to lean on our
understanding, to at least SOME degree. Unless God gives us the words
directly to write or speak (which he does sometimes) our own brains, our own
knowledge (and our own error) will enter into the picture.
Post by Pastor Frank
You will excuse me if I subscribe to those erroneous, and doubt what you
call the Holy Spirit. Like I said, I rest my case here and you won't hear
from me, unless you attack again holy scripture, ministers and churches etc.
without METICULOUS evidence of their wrongdoing.
--
Pastor Frank
Do you mean you won't reply to me if I, instead of attacking all these
things, apologize for attacking the bible, the churches, and the ministers?
I certainly don't want to start dragging out the "churches" dirty laundry.
If you think the atheists and God-haters are cheering now, then I'm sure
they will beside themselves if I were to show my "METICULOUS evidence" of
churches and ministers wrongdoing.

We all do wrong. We all fall short. We are sinners. If we follow Jesus
Christ, if we learn from Him and seek God with all of our hearts and souls,
studying the scripture with the Holy Spirit's guidance... then we will walk
in righteousness, not sin. But we do not do this. You notice I said we? This
means... the ministers... the priests and preachers and pastors... you...
me... Contad Diction... the "churches"... none of us follow Jesus Christ or
seek God, at least not with all of our hearts and souls.

I'm not trying to put anyone down, I'm just trying to spread some light on
the situation here, as I come to understand it. My understanding is from
seeking wisdom from God, as my only focus and my only prayer is that I might
come to know Him better, to serve Him better, to be one with Him. The closer
I become to Him, the more I loathe religion in all it's "glory"... and I
don't say this to be contentious, but to be as honest and truthful as I can
be. The more I seek God, the more I see how many churches, many religions or
denominations within Christianity are not seeking God and not following
Christ, and are even leading those who would seek Him astray (insofar as
they allow themselves to be led astray). Satan is definitly using the tool
of religion to muddy the waters, and he is using Christianity to make a
mockery of the teachings of Christ. Not all of christianity, or all
christians, mind you... but there is definitly some corruption there.

I don't advocate anyone NOT going to church, NOT learning about God, NOT
reading the bible... I would never in my life advocate any of these things.
But, I do say, don't lean on the preacher to teach you the Word, don't lean
on the "church" as the perfect representation of Christ, and don't lean on
the bible itself as the ends to knowing God, but rather as a means. Trust in
God with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding.

So many have fallen (or backslid), because their church wasn't perfect, the
preacher said or did something that wasn't right, or they perceived a
contradiction in the bible... but understanding and wisdom does not come
from the church (the "church" is far from perfect)... and the
preacher/pastor/priest is a MAN, he is not God, he is not The Word, he is a
man prone to error, just as we all are.

And your understanding of scripture is not where wisdom comes from, your
understanding of what Jesus meant means nothing if that understanding does
not come from God, so before you do anything, especially reading the
scripture, SEEK GODS WISDOM, seek His Spirit to guide you, pray for His
guidance, and you will see "hidden" meanings in the bible, things you never
even thought about or noticed... as you seek so shall you find.

For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the
Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were
among you for your sake. (1Th 1:5 KJV)
Post by Pastor Frank
2Tm:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable
for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in
righteousness:

Every writing inspired by God is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for
correction, and for instruction which is in righteousness, that the man of
God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
(2Ti 3:16-17 WEB)
Post by Pastor Frank
Jesus in Jn:5:39: Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have
eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
You don't have his word living in you; because you don't believe him whom he
sent. You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have
eternal life; and these are they which testify about me. Yet you will not
come to me, that you may have life. I don't receive glory from men. But I
know you, that you don't have God's love in yourselves.
(Joh 5:38-42 WEB)




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John Vogel
2003-07-28 07:00:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Vogel
The more I seek God, the more I see how many churches, many religions or
Post by John Vogel
denominations within Christianity are not seeking God and not following
Christ, and are even leading those who would seek Him astray (insofar as
they allow themselves to be led astray). Satan is definitly using the tool
of religion to muddy the waters, and he is using Christianity to make a
mockery of the teachings of Christ. Not all of christianity, or all
christians, mind you... but there is definitly some corruption there.
You are still at it, John. Understand, that I was an atheist for most
of
Post by John Vogel
my life, specializing in demolishing Christianity and trashing and flaming
all who promoted it. I used to, and I still could, spend all my time here
shredding religion WITH evidence, and there isn't a single denomination
which would be exempt from utter condemnation. I know how it's done John,
but I'm not doing it. Why? Glorifying Christ is far more fruitful than
trashing religion, listing all its faults and errors. The rule is: If you
have nothing good to say, DON'T SAY IT.
--
Pastor Frank
Do you think that if God has given me something to say, I should not say it
because of that "rule". What I say is good because it is true. I am not
trashing or flaming anybody, except those who are corrupting His Word. Do
you think God is against me speaking out a warning about the wolves who have
snuck in amongst His fold? Do you think Jesus would not have me emphasize
his teachings about OUR jobs, as the body of Christ? Do you think it's
flaming when I point out that many churches are not following "Christ" at
all?

Did you even read that post, or did you just skim it, find those words and
bring judgement against me because of that paragraph?

Did you read this part:
"I'm not trying to put anyone down, I'm just trying to spread some light on
the situation here, as I come to understand it. My understanding is from
seeking wisdom from God, as my only focus and my only prayer is that I might
come to know Him better, to serve Him better, to be one with Him. The closer
I become to Him, the more I loathe religion in all it's "glory"... and I
don't say this to be contentious, but to be as honest and truthful as I can
be."


Do you understand why I loathe religion and these many churches who are not
following Christ? Because they are like wolves, they are leading the flock
away from the Good shepherd, they are leading the flock down the path of
destruction, and the sheep are not following the Masters voice, but are
following these false pastors. I'm sorry if you think this is something I
should not be talking about, but it makes me sad to see so many turning from
the Truth because of so many false teachers following other false teachers,
and so many believing that Jesus Christ himself is false, because of the
corruption in what so many call "his church". Let God be true, but every man
a liar.

I am in no way flaming Christians or the churches or the bible, Pastor
Frank. I am, however, reaching out to those who have fallen prey to those
false churches who think that all churches are evil, and that all of
Christianity is about hatred and dissension and lies. There are many who
REALLY believe this, and many who believe this because they have seen it in
their OWN churches, they have seen it on television, they see it in the
news... and they equate this with our faith. I am TRYING to show these
people that they do NOT need to lean on man, that it isn't what that
christian is doing, or what that church has done, because there are corrupt
preachers and there are corrupt churches, but what matters is their OWN
personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Don't lean on mans understand to show you who God is and who Christ is, lean
on God, trust in Him and don't think that your faith is in any way tied to
some "religion" or some man-made creeds, it is not. Your salvation and your
faith hinges on one thing, how much you desire to walk in the light of Jesus
Christ. If you desire to know God, then stop looking at what the churches
teach, stop worrying about what this or that pastor or this or that
Christian said, open your bible, pray to God for guidance, and start seeking
to walk the path of righteousness.

Anyway, I cannot promise to not say anything more about the corruption in
the churches or the false teachings of those minions of satan who have been
placed in our churches, but I will try to tone it down so that it doesn't
look like i am completely attacking all religions and all preachers.

May God bless and keep you, Pastor Frank.






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Pastor Frank
2003-07-30 14:38:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Vogel
Post by John Vogel
The more I seek God, the more I see how many churches, many religions or
Post by John Vogel
denominations within Christianity are not seeking God and not following
Christ, and are even leading those who would seek Him astray (insofar as
they allow themselves to be led astray). Satan is definitly using the
tool
Post by John Vogel
Post by John Vogel
of religion to muddy the waters, and he is using Christianity to make a
mockery of the teachings of Christ. Not all of christianity, or all
christians, mind you... but there is definitly some corruption there.
You are still at it, John. Understand, that I was an atheist for most
of
Post by John Vogel
my life, specializing in demolishing Christianity and trashing and flaming
all who promoted it. I used to, and I still could, spend all my time here
shredding religion WITH evidence, and there isn't a single denomination
which would be exempt from utter condemnation. I know how it's done John,
but I'm not doing it. Why? Glorifying Christ is far more fruitful than
trashing religion, listing all its faults and errors. The rule is: If you
have nothing good to say, DON'T SAY IT.
--
Pastor Frank
Do you think that if God has given me something to say, I should not say it
because of that "rule".
You KNOW, that Satan is the adversary and his job-description is to
accuse without providing evidence. So how can you say slamming churches and
ministers is from "God"? That is what I mean, when you assume God gave you
something to say, when in actuality it's obviously Satan. ALL accusations
without meticulous evidence are of Satan. Don't you know that?
Post by John Vogel
What I say is good because it is true.
It's also true that shit stinks. Would God EVER ask us to make a point
desturbing it?
Post by John Vogel
I am not trashing or flaming anybody, except those who are corrupting His
Word.

If they truly "corrupt God's holy and inerrant Word", then your wouldn't
have any problems proving it, would you now?

Do
Post by John Vogel
you think God is against me speaking out a warning about the wolves who have
snuck in amongst His fold? Do you think Jesus would not have me emphasize
his teachings about OUR jobs, as the body of Christ? Do you think it's
flaming when I point out that many churches are not following "Christ" at
all?
Do you think our holy and glorious God full of love and grace would EVER
ask you, or any of us who love Him, to indiscriminately call all pastors and
their churches apostate, reprobate and in the business of selling "snake
oil" without presenting meticulous evidence?
It's your disdain for scripture which make you go off the rails like
that and causes you to mistake Satan's maligning for commands from the Holy
Spirit.
--
Pastor Frank

Jesus in Jn:12:32: And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all
men unto me.
Rv:3:20: Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice,
and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with
me.
John Vogel
2003-07-31 05:14:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by John Vogel
Post by John Vogel
The more I seek God, the more I see how many churches, many religions or
Post by John Vogel
denominations within Christianity are not seeking God and not
following
Post by John Vogel
Post by John Vogel
Post by John Vogel
Christ, and are even leading those who would seek Him astray
(insofar
Post by Pastor Frank
as
Post by John Vogel
Post by John Vogel
Post by John Vogel
they allow themselves to be led astray). Satan is definitly using the
tool
Post by John Vogel
Post by John Vogel
of religion to muddy the waters, and he is using Christianity to
make
Post by Pastor Frank
a
Post by John Vogel
Post by John Vogel
Post by John Vogel
mockery of the teachings of Christ. Not all of christianity, or all
christians, mind you... but there is definitly some corruption there.
You are still at it, John. Understand, that I was an atheist for
most
Post by John Vogel
of
Post by John Vogel
my life, specializing in demolishing Christianity and trashing and
flaming
Post by John Vogel
Post by John Vogel
all who promoted it. I used to, and I still could, spend all my time
here
Post by John Vogel
Post by John Vogel
shredding religion WITH evidence, and there isn't a single
denomination
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by John Vogel
Post by John Vogel
which would be exempt from utter condemnation. I know how it's done
John,
Post by John Vogel
Post by John Vogel
but I'm not doing it. Why? Glorifying Christ is far more fruitful than
trashing religion, listing all its faults and errors. The rule is: If
you
Post by John Vogel
Post by John Vogel
have nothing good to say, DON'T SAY IT.
--
Pastor Frank
Do you think that if God has given me something to say, I should not say
it
Post by John Vogel
because of that "rule".
You KNOW, that Satan is the adversary and his job-description is to
accuse without providing evidence. So how can you say slamming churches and
ministers is from "God"? That is what I mean, when you assume God gave you
something to say, when in actuality it's obviously Satan. ALL accusations
without meticulous evidence are of Satan. Don't you know that?
I don't assume God gave me anything, Frank. "In all actuality" it is God who
gives me what words I speak and write. Granted, I may stray from the path of
righteousness at times, but I have never lost that discernment over what God
gives me and what is from Satan. You err if you think Satan's only
"job-description" is to accuse without providing evidence. Satans (other)
so-called "job-description" is to spread lies, by twisting the truth. Satan
is not far from each of us, just as God is not far from any of us, and it is
up to us to decide whom we are to follow, who will rule over us, so to
speak. Satan rules by deception, God rules by Truth and Love and Spiritual
Enlightenment... Satan can manipulate the carnal mind, and turn the
spiritual mind from God, and if we have faith in God, His Spirit can
manipulate our spiritual man, and turn the carnal mind from Satan.
What you said above is simply not true, not about the nature of Satan, and
not about my own nature, or even about what I am doing. I am NOT slamming
churches and ministers, regardless of how you see it or understand it. ALL
accusations without meticulous evidence? Where on earth did you get that
from, Frank? You just accused me of speaking the words of Satan. Where is
your "meticulous evidence"? I appear (to you) to be "slamminging churches
and ministers" and (we KNOW) that Satan accuses without providing evidence.

You know there is more then enough evidence that the "churches" are not the
Church of Christ Jesus. I shouldn't even have to get into this with you,
Frank. Or maybe you don't know? Perhaps you are completely blind and
ignorant of any corruption in the Christian religion or the so-called
"churches". Or maybe you simply don't like to hear anyone talk about the
corruption, because you feel this is detrimental to spreading the gospel of
our salvation. I feel being open about these things actually increases our
success in spreading the gospel.
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by John Vogel
What I say is good because it is true.
It's also true that shit stinks. Would God EVER ask us to make a point
desturbing it?
I don't even know why you would want to go there, Frank.
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by John Vogel
I am not trashing or flaming anybody, except those who are corrupting His
Word.
If they truly "corrupt God's holy and inerrant Word", then your wouldn't
have any problems proving it, would you now?
I didn't say I did have any problems proving it, but I don't really think I
need to prove it, as I think the evidence is quite obvious.

Do you know you are starting to sound like a "God-Hater", with this "prove
it", and "where's the evidence".
Post by Pastor Frank
Do
Post by John Vogel
you think God is against me speaking out a warning about the wolves who
have
Post by John Vogel
snuck in amongst His fold?
Yes or No?

Do you think Jesus would not have me emphasize
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by John Vogel
his teachings about OUR jobs, as the body of Christ?
Yes or No?

Do you think it's
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by John Vogel
flaming when I point out that many churches are not following "Christ" at
all?
Yes or No?
Post by Pastor Frank
Do you think our holy and glorious God full of love and grace would EVER
ask you, or any of us who love Him, to indiscriminately call all pastors and
their churches apostate, reprobate and in the business of selling "snake
oil" without presenting meticulous evidence?
No, I don't think so.

Now one for you:
Do you have any evidence that I have EVER indiscriminately called ALL
pastors and their churches apostate, reprobate and in the business of
selling "snake oil"?
Post by Pastor Frank
It's your disdain for scripture which make you go off the rails like
that and causes you to mistake Satan's maligning for commands from the Holy
Spirit.
Why do you make such accusations? Now you think I have some disdain for
scripture? Have I mentioned, recently, that I spend between 4-8 hrs a day
studying the scripture? Maybe you missed the many times I have said "I LOVE
THE SCRIPTURE"! Maybe if I say it in all caps you might get the picture. Do
I think the scripture is the "Word of God"? No, I think the Word of God is
the Word of God. I don't know if you will ever understand this, but I pray
that someday you do.

You seem to love the scripture and I love the scripture too. I love the Word
of God, which speaks to me through the words of the bible, and I love the
Truth in this awesome book, which is given to us by God that we might seek
Him that we might seek Him in Jesus Christ, and through Jesus Christ, that
we might seek Him in ourselves. Then when we have found Him, we find that
Word which we have heard of in the scripture is suddenly ALIVE in US. Does
this mean the bible is no longer needed? No! The Bible is a means by which
God reveals Himself to us, it is not the only means, but it is an awesome
means. When we approach the scripture with an open mind, that is a mind open
to the Holy Spirit, to God... then things which are hidden are suddenly
revealed to us, through the scriptures. It's an awesome thing. It's not
dependent on the translation really, but on the translator (that being the
Holy Spirit).. I enjoy meticulously searching the Greek and Hebrew for
meaning, and my reward is unspeakable, because He reveals to me things which
I can hardly even comprehend, and I can't really make anyone else
understand... things of a spiritual nature which strengthens my own faith in
Him. But I don't idolize the bible, I don't worship the bible, I don't call
it perfect, i don't say it's innerent, and if you think that is showing
disdain for it, I would counter with YOU are showing disdain for the Word of
God, the Spirit of God, by calling the bible "the Word of God", rather then
understanding that the Word of God is within YOU not the bible.

What you think I am doing is not at all what I am doing. Let me make it
straight for you:
I am not slamming churches.
I do believe that Satan is quite involved in distorting the gospel of Jesus
Christ, that he is quite able to work through religion and he has been about
corrupting the "church" very shortly after Jesus Christ's own ascencion.
Satan attacks those things and corrupts those things which God has ordained.
Satan has acted through the church since long before the Christian Crusades,
Frank. Satan has acted through the Church of Rome, many times, and there is
well documented histories (even up to the modern days) of corruption among
the Catholics. The same could be said about the Baptists, probably the
Presebytarians and the Mormons and the Jehovahs Witnesses, and the (add your
own flavor of the truth here)... but it's not about those churches, or those
denominations, or those religions, Frank. And that's my point. I am not just
"slamming churches", I am saying that if they are truly of Jesus Christ then
it will be more then evident, and if they are not of Christ, then they are
of Satan.

I am not slamming ministers
I do believe that there are many wolves out there with their own
"ministries" which prey on the innocent and on the helpless, and they do
lead many astray from the Truth and the Light, in Jesus Christ. Don't think
for a second that Satan doesn't preach his own gospel through his own
minions. I am not saying that all minister are anointed by satan , Frank, as
I would have to include myself in this, as I am an ordained minister. But a
truly ordained man of God is on guard against perverse and strange
teachings, discerning the truth from the lies, and shining the Light on the
lies that the Truth might be revealed. I am doing no more nor less than
Jesus Christ did, I am not speaking of all the ministers, but of those who
shut up the kingdom of heaven against men.

"But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the
kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither
suffer ye them that are entering to go in." (Mat 23:13 KJV)

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited
sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of
dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear
righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
(Mat 23:27-28 KJV)

But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of
herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have
done, and not to leave the other undone. Woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye
love the uppermost seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which
appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.
(Luk 11:42-44 KJV)



As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
Rooted and built up in him, and established in the faith, as ye have been
taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you
through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the
rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
(Col 2:6-7 KJV)




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Pastor Frank
2003-07-23 01:02:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Pastor Frank
Atheists tend to talk our most holy and perfect God to be a
"Sky-daddy"
Post by Pastor Frank
or "sky-pixy" etc. etc. as if the word God was in any way comparable
to
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Pastor Frank
such fantasy objects, devoid of any qualities whatever..
So then you propose we stop seeing God as an entity altogether, let's
just start calling God an it, then, shall we? Let's call the Holy
spirit
Post by Pastor Frank
"it"
as
Post by Pastor Frank
well, after all, an ideal certainly can't have any sort of personal
qualities, such as gender... so it would be quite right, no? I'm sorry,
but
Post by Pastor Frank
I simply don't believe God is simply an ideal, oh I believe he is an
ideal,
Post by Pastor Frank
but that he is not just an ideal, and I certainly don't think Jesus
ever
Post by Pastor Frank
meant to imply that is all God is.
Your forget, that Christ is the ONLY begotten Son of God. That
means,
that there is no other physical rendition of God but Christ. Otherwise
God
is "a Spirit" (John 4:24) within Christ where He does the work,(John
14:10) as well as in all those who love Him.
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Pastor Frank
That is why I always give plenty of Biblical references, and I am
ready
Post by Pastor Frank
to supply more if asked. However I cannot debate people's beliefs sans
scriptural references, relying on logic or my personal perception of
the Holy Spirit alone, nor can I debate anyone who discounts Biblical
reference.
This is more then obvious Frank, but I wouldn't be too proud of it,
personally.
I disagree. For without reference your Christ is a mere figment of
your
own personal and private imagination.
So without the bible, God does not exist? God needs references to exist?
Our Christian God exists with or without the Bible, but without holy
scripture no one would know about Him, not even you? Think of the reverence
Christ had for scripture and how He referenced everything He said and did to
scripture, believing Himself as fulfilling its prophesies. I believe Christ
wants us to imitate Him in that. Don't you?
--
Pastor Frank

2Tm:3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable
for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
John Vogel
2003-07-23 07:05:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Pastor Frank
Atheists tend to talk our most holy and perfect God to be a
"Sky-daddy"
Post by Pastor Frank
or "sky-pixy" etc. etc. as if the word God was in any way comparable
to
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Pastor Frank
such fantasy objects, devoid of any qualities whatever..
So then you propose we stop seeing God as an entity altogether, let's
just start calling God an it, then, shall we? Let's call the Holy
spirit
Post by Pastor Frank
"it"
as
Post by Pastor Frank
well, after all, an ideal certainly can't have any sort of personal
qualities, such as gender... so it would be quite right, no? I'm sorry,
but
Post by Pastor Frank
I simply don't believe God is simply an ideal, oh I believe he is an
ideal,
Post by Pastor Frank
but that he is not just an ideal, and I certainly don't think Jesus
ever
Post by Pastor Frank
meant to imply that is all God is.
Your forget, that Christ is the ONLY begotten Son of God. That
means,
that there is no other physical rendition of God but Christ. Otherwise
God
is "a Spirit" (John 4:24) within Christ where He does the work,(John
14:10) as well as in all those who love Him.
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Pastor Frank
That is why I always give plenty of Biblical references, and I am
ready
Post by Pastor Frank
to supply more if asked. However I cannot debate people's beliefs
sans
Post by Pastor Frank
Post by Pastor Frank
scriptural references, relying on logic or my personal perception of
the Holy Spirit alone, nor can I debate anyone who discounts Biblical
reference.
This is more then obvious Frank, but I wouldn't be too proud of it,
personally.
I disagree. For without reference your Christ is a mere figment of
your
own personal and private imagination.
So without the bible, God does not exist? God needs references to exist?
Our Christian God exists with or without the Bible, but without holy
scripture no one would know about Him, not even you? Think of the reverence
Christ had for scripture and how He referenced everything He said and did to
scripture, believing Himself as fulfilling its prophesies. I believe Christ
wants us to imitate Him in that. Don't you?
--
Pastor Frank
Are you serious Frank? You just said Christ referenced everything he said
and did to scripture. He did no such thing! He referenced scripture a few
times, but he did not reference EVERYTHING he said and did to scripture. The
Parables were never referenced to scripture. The Sermon on the Mount, no
reference to any scripture. The Lords Prayer? Nope, nothing referencing
scripture... I could go on, but it's a bit silly. How can you say something
like this, when it's obvious that Jesus said ALOT of things that were not
referenced to scripture?




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Pastor Frank
2003-07-27 20:33:24 UTC
Permalink
So without the bible, God does not exist? God needs references to
exist?
Only according to fundamentalists.
Wrong!! Only according to atheists. Our God uses His holy and
inerrant
Word, the Bible to get people to know Him.
So why did you say 'For without reference your Christ is a mere figment of
your own personal and private imagination.'?
Christ is fully referenced in the NT of the Bible. However a Christ that
is not referenced in the Bible is obviously a figment of the person's
imagination. Is that too hard to understand for you?
Read up on the Christ of the NT and get to know Him, your salvation
depends on it.
--
Pastor Frank

Galatians4:16 "Am I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the
truth?"
Jesus in Jn:15:18: "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before
it
hated you".
Contad Diction
2003-07-28 12:14:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pastor Frank
So without the bible, God does not exist? God needs references to
exist?
Only according to fundamentalists.
Wrong!! Only according to atheists. Our God uses His holy and
inerrant
Word, the Bible to get people to know Him.
So why did you say 'For without reference your Christ is a mere figment
of your own personal and private imagination.'?
Christ is fully referenced in the NT of the Bible. However a Christ that
is not referenced in the Bible is obviously a figment of the person's
imagination. Is that too hard to understand for you?
So before the bible, chirst was a figment of imagination, and now because
some guys wrote some stuff done, it is a real?
Post by Pastor Frank
Read up on the Christ of the NT and get to know Him, your salvation
depends on it.
Indeed.

Regards
--
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